Concerned about Urban Combat...

[A Canadian Cat]

Not sure about binocular use but I always though that for the purposes of getting hit by incoming fire you *could* rely on the graphic stance to indicate who is in harms way and who is not. Certainly standing vs prone seems to be that way.

I don't know about you if I am using binoculars I have trouble seeing anything 8 - 10 m away. I'm looking much further away At which point I would expect my buddy to grab me an pull me down and say "what the hell are you doing the enemy is right there"

[RockinHarry]

I didn't even realize that you could split a HMG team, have to try that. I think the bigger issue is the pathfinding. I'm in a PBEM QB right now where I'm moving US HMG's into better firing positions in a central town. The incredibly frustrating thing is how they will not hug the wall when they enter a building. Instead, they run to the door and then run straight out perpendicular to the building in the wide open and start going in the door, lined up, ready to now be gunned down.

Common sense would have them straddling the door on either side and entering one by one as the rest of the team hugs the wall and waits their turn. This is how it happens in real life...if the soldiers want to live. This has happened to me twice now in this QB alone, and I've taken to just leaving them stay put, or only moving under smoke or absolute safety in all directions to compensate for the shoddy pathfinding.

No, you can´t split any the HMG teams (at least not in CMBN/CW which I have only). BFC implemented the various nationalities HMG teams in somewhat different ways in the OOB, dependent on overall size maybe. For some reason BFC decided to seperate US ammo bearers from the actual gun team by default. These are independent entieties and can´t be split nor recombined in any way, but belong together from C2 and ammo sharing POV. The RL german HMG team is composed of a gun team and ammo bearer team (3+3), but in the game it´s a non splitable entiety. I´d wish for it as well either have ammo bearers seperated in the OOB, like it is for the US, or lower the treshold for splitting, so that even a unit with 5-6 guys can be split (as long as it´s not already a split off unit).

With regard to path finding, I feel with you. Sounds like you tried entering a building, that partly fills have an AS, so the waypoint lies on the wall edge (center of AS). These are tricky as is all the other terrain, that has some wall or other obstacle straight through center of an AS (bocage, fence...).

The main problem IMHO, is the "in AS deployment" for each given waypoint as it not just oftenly causes unwanted positioning within an AS, it also causes serious movement delays, when it´s not the final waypoint. So plotting one waypoint just next to a building, is generally not a good idea. Better go straight inside from one out, to the next in (assuming it´s void of the enemy).

Figuring final "in AS deployment" also depends on movement direction, as generally the ptruppen do an autoface either towards the last movement direction or a spotted enemy unit, the more if it´s directly "threatening". One can plan ahead a bit, by plotting waypoints according to the final desired facing and in AS deployment. Assuming a unit is coming from south, moving toward a particular desired AS in the north, with final desired facing/deployment toward the east, then usually one would plot the WP directly and apply a facing east on the final waypoint.

Oftentimes it´s better to not plot the WP directly and instead use an extra WP just short (1-2 AS) of the final WP, so the last movement already yields to the desired end facing of the unit. Preferably do the last 1 AS movement in slow or hunt mode with a hide on each WP. The samller the unit (team/half squad) and the slower the final movement, the more are risks minimized from unpredictable AI deployments and micro pathing issues, particularly in bottleneck type terrain. In urban terrain that off course is not always applicable (example at top), if the pre final WP is on an AS outside a building. So a good cover AS is always a precondition for any intermediate WP. One should also know TAC AI preferences for ditches along roads, was well as shellholes when any movement path crosses these. When buildings overlap half an AS into a road terrain tile or crater, then there´s a high chance that the ptruppen prefer the road ditches/craters in this AS before the building cover.

Good use can also be made with pause command, change movement order between two waypoints in midmove (going from quick to slow i.e), or cancel a waypoint in midmove just before the final WP, in order to nail the unit in place and prevent unwanted redeployment. So one can oftenly catch a unit in column formation if it yields some advantage in the currently occupied AS. A new WP most oftenly let the unit start from the current micro deployment and generally, the slower the final move, the less the Tac AI has problems with micro path finding and induvidual soldiers interfere with each other.

For my tactical movements, I always start with a hide at start position and further hide at each WP and final WP.

[aleader]

The lesson, think about how your pixeltruppen are going to move before you commit them and if you aren't sure, do something to increase the odds in your behavior or try a different path.

This is against a human opponent, so the 'AI having the same rules' doesn't apply. As I stated, I've simply given up trying to move them as they should move in RL, and just either don't move them (a ridiculous restriction IMO) or only move them in complete safety all around the building, and/or under smoke. This obviously adds a lot of unnecessary hassle and unrealistically limits movement in urban areas, a reason I don't like playing maps with urban areas in CM.

Also, maybe I'm doing something wrong here but when I give a hunt command into a building from just outside the building the squad will often stop w/o going in because they have spotted enemies previously outside the buildings, sometimes several hundred metres away, forcing me to either use 'quick' or 'assault' to get them to actually enter the building. I would like a hunt command specific to entering buildings that ignores what's going on outside if the unit isn't under direct fire.

[aleader]

Not sure about binocular use but I always though that for the purposes of getting hit by incoming fire you *could* rely on the graphic stance to indicate who is in harms way and who is not. Certainly standing vs prone seems to be that way.

I don't know about you if I am using binoculars I have trouble seeing anything 8 - 10 m away. I'm looking much further away At which point I would expect my buddy to grab me an pull me down and say "what the hell are you doing the enemy is right there"

Exactly. The only 'visual' I need is my troops falling down dead when they stupidly ran out into the open when staying against the building would have kept them safe from fire 3 buildings over. If this is abstracted in some way and those men aren't actually in the line of fire in that open area where the bullets are hitting them, then BF needs to completely re-design the entire LOS system.

[mjkerner]

I would like a hunt command specific to entering buildings that ignores what's going on outside if the unit isn't under direct fire.

I'd like to see this too. I suspect, based on BFC's constant upgrading to meet these types of issues with each new release, that we'll see a lot of improvements to deal with urban combat by the time we get to Stalingrad.

[RockinHarry]

This is against a human opponent, so the 'AI having the same rules' doesn't apply. As I stated, I've simply given up trying to move them as they should move in RL, and just either don't move them (a ridiculous restriction IMO) or only move them in complete safety all around the building, and/or under smoke. This obviously adds a lot of unnecessary hassle and unrealistically limits movement in urban areas, a reason I don't like playing maps with urban areas in CM.

Also, maybe I'm doing something wrong here but when I give a hunt command into a building from just outside the building the squad will often stop w/o going in because they have spotted enemies previously outside the buildings, sometimes several hundred metres away, forcing me to either use 'quick' or 'assault' to get them to actually enter the building. I would like a hunt command specific to entering buildings that ignores what's going on outside if the unit isn't under direct fire.

Try a short range (20-30m), 360° covered arc, while using hunt (or any other), to keep them moving, in spite of spotted non engaging enemy units at range. Also have a hide at each waypoint to at least make them dive to cover at once, when stopped in the currently occupied AS for any reason. If the final waypoint is not finally reached and using hunt, in next orders phase cancel any targets, change the movement order for the waypoint to any other and set the 360° short range CA. This emphasizes covered movement, before any engaging the enemy. Works pretty good for me in dense urban terrain, when moving around house assaulting parties.

[aleader]

Try a short range (20-30m), 360° covered arc, while using hunt (or any other), to keep them moving, in spite of spotted non engaging enemy units at range. Also have a hide at each waypoint to at least make them dive to cover at once, when stopped in the currently occupied AS for any reason. If the final waypoint is not finally reached and using hunt, in next orders phase cancel any targets, change the movement order for the waypoint to any other and set the 360° short range CA. This emphasizes covered movement, before any engaging the enemy. Works pretty good for me in dense urban terrain, when moving around house assaulting parties.

Good tip, thanks. I'll try that.

[Sailor Malan2]

I guess it´s not easy to fix (really old issue) An autosave option could be helpful, however not a solution. Perhaps doors can be modded

Admittedly I haven't done a huge amount of urban fighting in CM, but the doors issue is not a big deal for me. When your troops suddenly find they can't get in a door, I rationalise this as perfectly normal. If the building is damaged, maybe something fell across it. If pristine maybe the owner took precautions and pushed a dresser across the door and left via the window (in the vain hope they might come back without their house having been fought through). Unless a unit had been fighting in the same part of town for a day or more, you think they know where every door is? Let alone which ones are open/damaged/usable? If you are doing 'real' urban fighting (as opposed to advance to contact type stuff), you don't use doors on the whole anyway - blast though a wall (either with engineers or large HE). And any defender that's been there for more than a few hours will have loopholed the walls anyway...

As someone said, the major issue with CM is that people 'expect' stuff to happen in certain ways (WW2 as seen in the movies etc), and then are surprised when it doesn't. See what the engine does then analyse it, and often it is perfectly valid, just not what you assumed would happen.

Also, just a quick thought - when I first started I was getting massacred by the AI because I used my Squad Leader experience, assuming 1 min (WEGO) was about a turn, so fire on target for one turn (with the sort of firepower that will cause a MC in SL), rush a squad out to close, get massacred, rinse and repeat! You need to be a whole lot more patient... Spending 2-3 mins just watching and suppressing is rarely time wasted. Lots of people move too fast and get shot correspondingly fast.... (hence disparate kill rates vs AI)

[Andrew H.]

Admittedly I haven't done a huge amount of urban fighting in CM, but the doors issue is not a big deal for me. When your troops suddenly find they can't get in a door, I rationalise this as perfectly normal. If the building is damaged, maybe something fell across it. If pristine maybe the owner took precautions and pushed a dresser across the door and left via the window (in the vain hope they might come back without their house having been fought through). Unless a unit had been fighting in the same part of town for a day or more, you think they know where every door is? Let alone which ones are open/damaged/usable? If you are doing 'real' urban fighting (as opposed to advance to contact type stuff), you don't use doors on the whole anyway - blast though a wall (either with engineers or large HE). And any defender that's been there for more than a few hours will have loopholed the walls anyway...

Although I completely agree that the troops shouldn't have an architect's knowledge of where all the doors on every building on the map are, the door issue is still a big issue because instead of troops stopping where they thought the door would be, they continue around the building until they find the door, even when this is a horrible idea.

I.e., assume an enemy occupied building facing a street, an unoccupied building on the other side of the street, and a friendly unit behind the unoccupied building and out of LOS to the occupied building. If you give the friendly units orders to enter the unoccupied building and the only door is in the front of the building, the units will move the rear of the building, move around the building to the street, and enter the building from the front door. If there are any survivors. Even going in through a side door would likely lead to casualties if the enemy occupied building had LOS.

The problem can be worked around easily enough, of course, but I still think it's a problem. It just may be a problem that can't be easily solved, because *sometimes* your order to enter a building just means "enter it anywhere; it doesn't matter", and other times your order means "enter this building from this side only...and if you can't, for God's sake don't walk around in front of the building on the road that is covered by the flak guns". It's always completely obvious to *me* what I mean, though.

On another note, I'd also really like the ability to toggle buildings off as mentioned upthread; plotting movement on dense urban maps is sometime difficult if there are a lot of units and taller buildings. And this will become even more difficult when sewer movement is added. (There will be sewer movement, won't there?)

[Baneman]

...On another note, I'd also really like the ability to toggle buildings off as mentioned upthread; plotting movement on dense urban maps is sometime difficult if there are a lot of units and taller buildings.

Perhaps it would be most useful to have a toggle like the trees one - where only storeys above the 1st one are removed from view. You'd be able to see your men and the houses and most importantly ... the doors !

Would imagine it would be a lot of work though - you'd need some way of knowing which houses had how many storeys etc.

[mjkerner]

Perhaps it would be most useful to have a toggle like the trees one - where only storeys above the 1st one are removed from view. You'd be able to see your men and the houses and most importantly ... the doors !

Would imagine it would be a lot of work though - you'd need some way of knowing which houses had how many storeys etc.

I like this idea very much! Or even a toggle to make them transparent like they are when occupied by your men or spotted enemy.

[aleader]

As someone said, the major issue with CM is that people 'expect' stuff to happen in certain ways (WW2 as seen in the movies etc), and then are surprised when it doesn't. See what the engine does then analyse it, and often it is perfectly valid, just not what you assumed would happen.

As stated before, this is not the issue. That's like saying you expect tanks to shoot forward when they're facing backwards because that's just what the game does. That's crazy. When I send an HMG team into a building and they run around in circles waaay out in the open and then line up where the enemy is firing instead of staying in the cover they HAD against the house, this is stupid, period. Yes, I expect them not to be stupid. If this is an unrealistic expectation of CM, call me unrealistic.