Concerned about Urban Combat...

[76mm]

I'm still trying to get up to speed with CMx2, and played the Venafro scenario in CMFI for some urban combat. I play WeGo exclusively.

So far it's not going well. I guess I have two main issues:

1) When I try to have a unit enter a building, they seem to completely ignore windows and even sometimes doors, so to enter the building they will end up running out onto some side of the building where they are completely exposed to fire. Result: Lots of bodies.

2) Same kind of issue with position behind walls, etc. The action spots do not allow very much finetuning with positioning, and if I try to put a team behind a wall or something, first they might take some crazy route to get there, and then the don't really position themselves the way I want. Results: Lots of bodies.

Any tips for urban combat?

[Whiterider]

The possibility to toggle buildings is a solution. In dense urban enviroments it´s almost imposible to see clearly where are the units located. Toggle doors to see where are located might be also useful.

On another note a preview of given orders will help to avoid those bodies and other unexpected mistakes (movement, crazy routes, etc.). I know it´s frustrating when your troops are not able to follow simple orders. In certain circumstances this stupid behaivour is the difference between victory and defeat.

[stikkypixie]

I'm still trying to get up to speed with CMx2, and played the Venafro scenario in CMFI for some urban combat. I play WeGo exclusively.

So far it's not going well. I guess I have two main issues:

1) When I try to have a unit enter a building, they seem to completely ignore windows and even sometimes doors, so to enter the building they will end up running out onto some side of the building where they are completely exposed to fire. Result: Lots of bodies.

2) Same kind of issue with position behind walls, etc. The action spots do not allow very much finetuning with positioning, and if I try to put a team behind a wall or something, first they might take some crazy route to get there, and then the don't really position themselves the way I want. Results: Lots of bodies.

Any tips for urban combat?

Short movement orders and lots of waypoints. Also use the face command. And go slow (as in don't rush things, not the command "SLOW")

[76mm]

I don't see toggle buildings or toggle doors on the hotkey list, or are those suggested new features?

Also, how do I preview orders?

Finally, my waypoints can't really get much shorter, just across a street and into a building, or across a street, around a wall, and behind another building, etc.

But the action spots are so far apart that I can't get troops to move to the particular spots I want them to.

I guess most of you guys figured this stuff out with CMSF, but I've played very little till now, especially urban fights.

[stikkypixie]

I don't see toggle buildings or toggle doors on the hotkey list, or are those suggested new features?

Also, how do I preview orders?

Finally, my waypoints can't really get much shorter, just across a street and into a building, or across a street, around a wall, and behind another building, etc.

But the action spots are so far apart that I can't get troops to move to the particular spots I want them to.

I guess most of you guys figured this stuff out with CMSF, but I've played very little till now, especially urban fights.

You have to make sure there is a door. I have made this mistake many times, thinking that like in CMx1 I can enter a building from any side. But in the new game you can only enter buildings from certain sides.

[c3k]

As well, if there is rubble or debris by the door, that door may not function.

Send a scout.

[RockinHarry]

I mainly play (test) my own mission creations and I do not encounter the odd movement behaviors in and out of buildings that much. But if something like that happens, I go to map editor at once and check if the building is one of larger ones, that overlap into more than 1 action spot, or single 1 AS buildings placed in that matter. I mean filling out 1-2 AS completely and overlapping just half of a neighbouring one. I do that quite often in my maps and I thus know, those building configurations could become quite tricky for movemenent and also deployment purposes. For movement it then depends if the waypoint then lies on the wall edge of a building, just filling half of an AS. This could occasionally lead to get ptruppen moved, where you don´t want them to and the "trick" is then to check in top-down view (F5-F6), if it´s better to set the WP either one more in, or out. There´s similar things to consider when using the facing command on units moving and deploying within those buildings.

Think it´s also of concern if connected buildings have proper inner wall settings, with windows/doors either completely removed or properly matched.

Other influencing factors is friendly and enemy map edge setting, which determines the covered and uncovered side of walls/hedges, as might be use of the various movement commands, with some having more bias on movement speed, instead of taking a covered route.

So IMHO there´s various influencing factors to be taken into consideration and when in doubt, zoom in in F6 view, check building configuration (overlap AS, other intersecting terrain elements) and send a detached 2-3 men scout unit first, to check the AI´s movement manners.

Something else I have problems with more often than not, is the high ptruppen density at times within a single AS. A full squads men appear to oftentimes step on each boots, while moving in and through constricted terrain, leading to micro pathing issues and serious delays, while the tac AI tries to figure where to move all that men withing that 8x8 meters. I tend to split squads so to assure that no more than 4-5 men move through a single AS at a time, particularly when in contact and LOF with the enemy. I think the AI works best with no more than 3-5 men in an AS at a time in most circumstances.

Use of facing command is oftentimes quite difficult for infantry units and hard to predict. I´ve yet to figure out how it "exactly" works. You can apply facing in 3D. It works on single AS, on a particular story of a building, a single tree, directly on friendly and enemy units, as well as floating icons and the off map area surrounding the actual map. Each facing action could result in different and hardly predictable positioning of ptruppen in an AS and behind walls. Oftentimes it´s better to not use facing at all and let the AI do on its own mind. Again, facing results appear to be better and more predictable, the less men are within an AS.

In my own mission designs, I cut strenght of german HMG units by half to get rid of the extra men, that unnecessarily cramp the AS and just increase vulnerability of the whole unit and provide micro positioning problems. It still escapes me, why US HMG units can split and the germans can not.

[agusto]

And, if the only door to a building is within range of enemy weapons, dont forget that tank guns are great for creating new entry points.

[Whiterider]

I don't see toggle buildings or toggle doors on the hotkey list, or are those suggested new features?

These are suggested new features.

[76mm]

Thanks for the tips guys, especially RockinHarry.

One more question--it seems that when I want a squad to pop smoke, I can't aim it at all--they will only pop it about 20 meters directly in front of their current position/facing. Is that right, or am I missing something?

[agusto]

You are - kinda - missing something. Units will pop smoke approx. 20 m infront of the direction they are facing. You can though control the place where the smoke lands by first issueing a 'face' command at the waypoint where the smoke is to be popped and then issueing a 'pop smoke' command. Orders are followed in the order you give them. If you order the 'face' command after the the 'pop smoke' command, they will first throw the smoke and then look in the direction you ordered them to.

[Erwin]

"Toggle doors to see where are located might be also useful."

That's a good idea. Too many times, we see doors, but they are not "operational" and our men go by a fatal route.

[Baneman]

You are - kinda - missing something. Units will pop smoke approx. 20 m infront of the direction they are facing. You can though control the place where the smoke lands by first issueing a 'face' command at the waypoint where the smoke is to be popped and then issueing a 'pop smoke' command. Orders are followed in the order you give them. If you order the 'face' command after the the 'pop smoke' command, they will first throw the smoke and then look in the direction you ordered them to.

Be aware, however, that this is not 100% reliable.

I've seen guys "move" their Face/Pop Smoke command around and chuck the smoke grenade in a wildly inappropriate direction.

I've never tested, but it may be if the command is given at a waypoint the unit has moved to - the guys still moving face in various directions as they sort themselves out in the AS and the smoke grenade timing seems variable. ( that's just a guess - but if you select the unit during the replay turn, you can see the pink Pop Smoke line wave around wildly ). To be fair, the grenade does go where the line is pointing, it just may not be pointing where you set it to point.

Memorably, during my CMBN AAR, I had a smoke grenade go 180 degrees from where it was intended - landing behind the team who were trying to cover their front :eek:

[Erwin]

I noticed the same facing "confusion" that Baneman is talking about.

Anyone know if a facing command followed by a few seconds PAUSE helps re throwing a smoke grenade in the desired direction?

[sburke]

I'm still trying to get up to speed with CMx2, and played the Venafro scenario in CMFI for some urban combat. I play WeGo exclusively.

So far it's not going well. I guess I have two main issues:

1) When I try to have a unit enter a building, they seem to completely ignore windows and even sometimes doors, so to enter the building they will end up running out onto some side of the building where they are completely exposed to fire. Result: Lots of bodies.

2) Same kind of issue with position behind walls, etc. The action spots do not allow very much finetuning with positioning, and if I try to put a team behind a wall or something, first they might take some crazy route to get there, and then the don't really position themselves the way I want. Results: Lots of bodies.

Any tips for urban combat?

Just so you know, that map was begun more or less as an experiment to see just how close in CM one could recreate a dense heavily damaged urban environment. Some of the building "ruins" are simply elevation differences with some walls and flavor items. Others are actual ruined buildings.

Walls seem to have a particular effect in CM of closing off what would otherwise appear to be valid movement options. In particular walls and buildings are a tough mix.

Long movement options in Venafro and sometimes even short movement orders can end up as you found to be deadly. For the most part, movement within buildings should be fine. I was even able in some locations to have units exit a building through a destroyed wall into an adjoining elevated tile giving a pretty good impression of them climbing out of the rubble of one building and over the rubble of another.

For me, part of acclimating to the effects is trying to visualize what the terrain would be like. Piles of rubble may be loose, walls are structurally weak etc Net result is my pixeltruppen are basing their routes on actual conditions versus appearances. Yeah I know that doesn't help planning movement, but it is how I handled the discrepancies.

I spend a lot of time tinkering on an expanded version of that map and have become used to what to expect where. The Town center in particular is a deliberate mess. Advancing through it is difficult and tends to lead to your troops suddenly becoming exposed to enemy fire in less than ideal conditions. Once CMFI gets upgraded to version 3, I hope to revisit it with a slightly larger force mix and armor. It was created prior to the tweaks BF added to allow use of AT weapons from buildings.

The suggestions from others, smoke, scouts etc are all really good ones, and if it makes you feel any better, the AI has a far worse time on that map.

[Erwin]

It's a great map. I also had great difficulty with it - took too many casualties even when being very careful. Would enjoy replaying it some day.

[sburke]

It's a great map. I also had great difficulty with it - took too many casualties even when being very careful. Would enjoy replaying it some day.

Thanks, I hope to be able to do more with it at some point though I need some practice on triggers. Consider it a practice run for eventually doing Stalingrad.

[Erwin]

Exciting...

However, there is a bit of a problem playing CMSF and any WW2 CM2 game in dense urban settings as it's hard to get a good visual of the action. Walls get in the way very easily and block LOS to what you want to see.

[76mm]

...if it makes you feel any better, the AI has a far worse time on that map.

Dunno, the AI seems to be doing pretty well against me!

That said, I think something needs to be done before the engine moves to Stalingrad. While I totally understand about the variable condition of the various walls, etc., I think players will need a better idea about where their pixeltroopen will and won't go.

[agusto]

Be aware, however, that this is not 100% reliable.

I've seen guys "move" their Face/Pop Smoke command around and chuck the smoke grenade in a wildly inappropriate direction.

I've never tested, but it may be if the command is given at a waypoint the unit has moved to - the guys still moving face in various directions as they sort themselves out in the AS and the smoke grenade timing seems variable. ( that's just a guess - but if you select the unit during the replay turn, you can see the pink Pop Smoke line wave around wildly ). To be fair, the grenade does go where the line is pointing, it just may not be pointing where you set it to point.

Memorably, during my CMBN AAR, I had a smoke grenade go 180 degrees from where it was intended - landing behind the team who were trying to cover their front :eek:

You are right, this doesnt work always. I am often using ionfantry smoke grenades and in my experience the procedure i described above only works if the waypoint where you issue the smoke to be thrown is the last waypoint of a chain.

[Childress]

Someone (Womble?) posted that the conduct of urban warfare in CM is like a black box. It generates plausible outcomes provided you don't scrutinize the mechanics too closely. It's too late for Arnhem (with some improvements), but by the time they get to Stalingrad there will be a host of refinements. Notably in structural damage, new commands, and, yes, 'fire'*. You can take it to the bank. However we'll never see the interior detailing of your standard FPS shooter.

*I suggest the do fire in two installments. First buildings, then terrain.

[permanent666]

I hope some day bigger buildings will get split in 2 to 4 action areas simulating rooms that would add more flexibility in urban combat and lessen abstraction.

the downside would be even more micromanaging and ai problems.

[RockinHarry]

Just so you know, that map was begun more or less as an experiment to see just how close in CM one could recreate a dense heavily damaged urban environment. Some of the building "ruins" are simply elevation differences with some walls and flavor items. Others are actual ruined buildings.

Walls seem to have a particular effect in CM of closing off what would otherwise appear to be valid movement options. In particular walls and buildings are a tough mix.

Long movement options in Venafro and sometimes even short movement orders can end up as you found to be deadly. For the most part, movement within buildings should be fine. I was even able in some locations to have units exit a building through a destroyed wall into an adjoining elevated tile giving a pretty good impression of them climbing out of the rubble of one building and over the rubble of another.

For me, part of acclimating to the effects is trying to visualize what the terrain would be like. Piles of rubble may be loose, walls are structurally weak etc Net result is my pixeltruppen are basing their routes on actual conditions versus appearances. Yeah I know that doesn't help planning movement, but it is how I handled the discrepancies.

I spend a lot of time tinkering on an expanded version of that map and have become used to what to expect where. The Town center in particular is a deliberate mess. Advancing through it is difficult and tends to lead to your troops suddenly becoming exposed to enemy fire in less than ideal conditions. Once CMFI gets upgraded to version 3, I hope to revisit it with a slightly larger force mix and armor. It was created prior to the tweaks BF added to allow use of AT weapons from buildings.

The suggestions from others, smoke, scouts etc are all really good ones, and if it makes you feel any better, the AI has a far worse time on that map.

Interesting! Unfortunately I do not have CMFI, so I can not have a look at your Venafro map. I´m working on similar environments, with all sorts of partly weird building configurations, which to my partly surprise, "work" pretty well in the game. Though I had to use some selfmade mods to get convincing looks as well (a rubble texture as replacement for rocky red and a better looking ground hard from Aris, as well as some dirty pavement).

[c3k]

You're missing something.

Give 'em a FACE command where you want it. Then give the POP SMOKE. It should go right...there.

[RockinHarry]

I hope some day bigger buildings will get split in 2 to 4 action areas simulating rooms that would add more flexibility in urban combat and lessen abstraction.

the downside would be even more micromanaging and ai problems.

Partly you can already. Constructing larger blocks from Modular Building #1, which covers just one AS, is possible, though requiring lots of work to get all interior walls matched. Selecting right facade texture also makes this apear as one large, multi AS building. It´s not quite the same as dividing into 4x4m rooms, but it comes pretty close to what you want and works well.