Soviet SMG squads

[LC-]

Whats the best way to get them in the fight without smoke? Lets say there is an enemy platoon 100m away with open field crossing. I have tried to pin them with covering fire from other squads but the SMG squad usually gets cut down or dead tired before reaching them.

How does one go about not running these units to death?

[Oddball_E8]

what do you mean by "I have tried"... Do you have access to the game???

[LC-]

No sorry, from the old CMBB days. And to a lesser extent just getting any squad up close when needed.

[Flanker15]

Smoke.

But other than smoke just shoot as many bullets/explosions as you can at the defenders.

[AttorneyAtWar]

"Fire and maneuver that's the name of the game, fire and maneuver!"

[womble]

Note, this is largely extrapolation; I have no experience with anything CMRT.

Whats the best way to get them in the fight without smoke? Lets say there is an enemy platoon 100m away with open field crossing. I have tried to pin them with covering fire from other squads but the SMG squad usually gets cut down or dead tired before reaching them.

How does one go about not running these units to death?

Don't run them across the field. Unless you have a really strong suppression element on every enemy element that might have LOS to them while they are. Which usually means more than "the rest of your platoon"; you want HMGs, mortars and tanks to be backing you up when you try such maneuvers, and you'll want significant odds of infantry teams on your side too, which might be difficult to arrange at that close an engagement distance, depending on terrain. And if you've got those, you probably want them to drive the enemy out with weaponfire rather than cross 100m of open ground.

Or you need to find another way round with more cover and shorter sight lines.

If you absolutely have to cross, the SMG teams have to help themselves, as well as expect their company mates to pour fire across the gap. AIUI, a Russian squad has one LMG. A german platoon across the way would have 7 or more elements that can do you harm, if it's split (as I'd say it probably should be) into its constituent teams. One LMG per element isn't going to suppress anything reliably. Adding the "B" rifle team to that LMG won't improve things markedly at 100m. So you're looking at needing at least 2 squads per German team if you don't use your SMGs. At least. You probably need more to get the initial suppression, but if the Germans have any cover at all, 2 LMG and 2 Rifle teams are, I'd suggest, an absolute minimum to keep a target infantry team 90% suppressed. So you need to add the SMG teams into the mix. They need to make short, alternating bounds, with stops (10-15s) to area fire as they go. Their fire will be effective at <100m, so they'll contribute significantly to the suppression. Probably enough that a single squad can keep a single team's head down pretty much, if the SMG teams perform anything like a German "Scout" team (the kind with 3 MP40), which seems likely from the current Bil v Elvis DAR.

An entire squad of SMGs might be able to advance using its own fire support on a single team, too, if you can ensure keeping 2 teams cover firing while one team moves (they're 3-team squads, aren't they?). But you have to coordinate suppressing all the enemy teams, however you approach it, and you're going to burn through SMG ammo unless you've got overwhelming support.

If you've got lots of ammo, they might even be able to sweep the defenders out of their position with their own fire. 100m is effective for SMGs. Edit: remember to leave some suppression gaps so the enemy get a chance to run away; if you pin them down too hard, you have to kill them, and that requires closing or even more ammo.

[Sailor Malan2]

3:1, 3:1! As womble so eloquently points out, you need more firepower. Advancing across open terrain you need to think 3:1 (or equivalent). To move against one platoon, in good positions, think 'company' (or seriously reinforced platoon). To attempt anything else is suicide. This holds for more than just SMGs. A decent rifle platoon might just about suppress a defensive platoon, but wont be able to move, and I wouldn't bet on winning the firefight unless something else is in your favour. In my experience, the suppression acquired in moving in to position will mean you lose the fire fight when advancing (barring things like Late US troops vs green Italians)

[Duckman]

Isn't this where the obscene amount of Soviet AFVs comes in as well? They built over 7000 Su-76s and 14 000 T-34s in 1944 alone (the US built 13 000 Shermans the same year). The result is that unlike the Landser who increasingly found himself facing the enemy alone, the Soviet (and American) soldier could usually count on mobile fire support.

(For comparison the Germans built 5000 StuGs and just under 7000 Panzer IVs and Panthers in 1944, for two fronts of course.)

[c3k]

^^^

First, bombard the tree line for 60 minutes with 152/122 howitzers. Then, mount your SMG'ers up on the back of some T34's. (I recommend several dozen.) Shout "urrah" or "za rodina!", and charge the tanks forward. Dismount upon the foxholes the fascist invaders have dug; use them as graves for the fritzes. The irony of their having dug their own graves will make for some good banter over vodka, later.

Replace your casualties with conscripts from the village you just "liberated". Move 3-5 klicks west, and repeat.

[Buzz]

^^^

First, bombard the tree line for 60 minutes with 152/122 howitzers. Then, mount your SMG'ers up on the back of some T34's. (I recommend several dozen.) Shout "urrah" or "za rodina!", and charge the tanks forward. Dismount upon the foxholes the fascist invaders have dug; use them as graves for the fritzes. The irony of their having dug their own graves will make for some good banter over vodka, later.

Replace your casualties with conscripts from the village you just "liberated". Move 3-5 klicks west, and repeat.

I think I saw this in a movie once only they had horses.... solid-hoofed plant-eating domesticated mammals with flowing manes and tails, used for riding, racing to battle and carry and pull loads and the horses were alive horses

I can't wait for Soviet SMG squads

[Vark]

There's a reason T-34's had 60+ rounds of HE ammo and IS-2's had twice as many HE to AP! You advance, get engaged, sprint forward to the nearest cover, then hold on to any ground gained and wait as direct fire HE and the MMG's and HMG's supress the enemy, as a second wave hopefully move past the initial gains. Rinse and repeat until you have succeeded or failed. Attrition is the name of the game, not fancy fire and movement, or sophisticated fire support plans, that allow you to loose less men, but take more TIME. The main enemy for the Soviets, in 44, was not the Germans, but time, CMRT players have to be relentless and not fixate on their fallen pixel troopers.

Who cares if Sgt Lemenko has only three soldiers left, if he is fulfilling his mission. He knows that, his soldiers know that and you as their commander should. Read c3k's posts and AAR's, for the right attitude to the Soviet method of war, trouble is his British Paras fought like Soviet Guardsman, but what a fight!

[Duckman]

There's a reason T-34's had 60+ rounds of HE ammo and IS-2's had twice as many HE to AP!

And, to continue the unwarranted statistical excercise, the Soviets built almost 5000 IS-2s and ISU-122/152s in 1944 which means they built almost as many of those as the Germans built tanks!

In other words that's a lot of direct fire HE available to Soviet commanders. And to continue the somewhat lighthearted example above, liberal dosages of that can solve tactical problems.

[LC-]

Thanks for the info! Maybe I just get a little antsy and don't wait for more surpressing fire. Also, sorry if this was off topic for this forum.

[Vark]

Not off topic at all, there is an AAR going on between Bil and Elvis where there is a debate about the correct use of Soviet troops. Bottom line, don't get to close to them, use them like ammunition, they are there to achieve a goal, not be grieved over, that's for their pixel families, that's if they are alive after three years of Nazi occupation.

[womble]

Who cares if Sgt Lemenko has only three soldiers left, if he is fulfilling his mission.

Only he probably isn't any more, being Broken/Paniced and largely useless for advancing anywhere. Taking casualties while trying to advance will stop the advance unless the troops have better-than-average soft stats, in the current CM morale model, I find, even if they're in good C2. I do worry about my pTruppen, but as well as being a big softy, there's a practical reason for it: if I'm cavalier with their lives, I don't get off my start line.

[Dadekster]

Not off topic at all, there is an AAR going on between Bil and Elvis where there is a debate about the correct use of Soviet troops. Bottom line, don't get to close to them, use them like ammunition, they are there to achieve a goal, not be grieved over, that's for their pixel families, that's if they are alive after three years of Nazi occupation.

I am pretty sure c3k covered the main topics on this already, especially the last sentence.

[MikeyD]

I joked back in CM:Afghanistan (with its alarmingly weak late war squads) that Soviet tactics were for the infantry to march forward over the charred corpses of thier enemies. If the enemy is still shooting at you as you approach you must've done something wrong earlier in the battle.

[White Phosphorus]

Heavy SMG squads were garbage in CM:BB because all weapons in the squad were fed from a single ammunition pool. So you would engage the enemy at long range with the MG, which would magically deplete the SMG ammo as well. And by the time you got into SMG range, your squad would have an ammo rating < 5. There was a big thread about that, and people actually defended that crap.

[Fizou]

Heavy SMG squads were garbage in CM:BB because all weapons in the squad were fed from a single ammunition pool. So you would engage the enemy at long range with the MG, which would magically deplete the SMG ammo as well. And by the time you got into SMG range, your squad would have an ammo rating < 5. There was a big thread about that, and people actually defended that crap.

I never had that problem. Why engage at such ranges? Use short ca and move appropriately.

[White Phosphorus]

I never had that problem. Why engage at such ranges? Use short ca and move appropriately.

Are we seriously going to have this discussion again?

[sburke]

If so please do it in the CMBB forum.

[Fizou]

Are we seriously going to have this discussion again?

No lets not. Lets both be happy about the fact that the same problem wont happen in CMx2 and CMRT.

[Duckman]

Interesting tidbit on tank cooperation with submachine gunners, from an interview with a Soviet Sherman commander:

How did you co-operate with the infantry during combat?

- By TOE the tank brigade had three tank battalions of 21 tanks each and a battalion of submachine gunners. A submachine gun battalion had three companies, one for each tank battalion. We had this three-battalion structure only in late 1943 and early 1944. All the rest of the time we had two tank battalions in the brigade.[...]

- During combat they sat on the tanks until the firing started. As soon as the Germans opened fire on our tanks, they jumped off and ran behind the tanks, frequently protected by its armor from enemy light machine gun fire.

If it happened that the tanks were limited in maneuver and speed, did you maneuver your infantry or halt them?

- Nothing like that. We did not pay any attention to them. We maneuvered and they maneuvered themselves behind us. There were no problems. It would have been worse for them if we had been knocked out, so let them run behind us.

Source: http://english.iremember.ru/tankers/17-dmitriy-loza.html?q=%2Ftankers%2F17-dmitriy-loza.html&start=4

Anyone know how SMG infantry fit into non-tank unit TOEs?

[JasonC]

Duckman - in the rifle arm, the only fully SMG armed formations were specialist "assault companies", which led infantry attacks. Sometimes behind recon "pathfinders", sometimes acting as the pathfinders for the line rifle units, sometimes in cooperation with small units of pioneers to clear obstacles and eliminate strongpoints with explosives and the like. These were frequently ad hoc affairs, put together tactically for a specific attack via drafts from larger units. Sometimes they were volunteers for the role.

The idea in those cases was to limit the size of the unit exposed to enemy fire at the lead of the attack, to use stealth, cover, night or other limited visibility conditions to get as close to the enemy outposts as possible. Then enemy positions would be knocked out rapidly by grenades and SMGs, enough of them to clear a line of approach through which the trailing formations could maneuver. I am contrasting those "trench raid" tactics with any idea of a simple charge. The first wave of battlefield recon and SMG assault parties locate enemy positions, mark them, blind or KO those they can and bypass others, and the following line rifle formations try to travel in their wake as far as possible.

They might make it clear through the enemy defense that way, or they might only make it through a thinly held outpost line, and then get "checked" by the enemy main position. Engaging that would then be a job for the main rifle "line" formations and their supporting heavy weapons, artillery support etc. Again the idea is to get those deep into the enemy position first, instead of them getting hung up on obstacles or checked by "wait a minute" MG positions in the outpost line, or observed and artillery stonked by watchers in those outposts.

There was nothing terribly new about those tactics. They date to the first world war and to the practice of trench raiding parties, on all fronts. If you go in at night as quiet as you can, you'd much rather have a tommy gun and grenades than bolt rifles; you are aiming for an initial engagement range in the tens of feet, rather than hundreds of yards.