Soviet Air Support

[AttorneyAtWar]

In the overview it mentions the fact that the soviets won't be able to call in air support with a FAC or how the western countries do it, and will instead come in automatically. How does this work exactly, will the aircraft you choose (Or have given to you in a scenario) do random passes over the course of the game?

[MikeyD]

With the disclaimer that the game continues to evolve as we speak, the ability to pinpoint targets from the front line during an engagement just seemed too 'modern' for the eastern front they decided to switch to roving patrols. Your only control is purchasing them in a QB at all. And even then they may not spot the enemy, may be shot down or scared off by on-map AA units. in other words your IL-2 does not act like an F15 dropping a GBU-12.

[AttorneyAtWar]

With the disclaimer that the game continues to evolve as we speak, the ability to pinpoint targets from the front line during an engagement just seemed too 'modern' for the eastern front they decided to switch to roving patrols. Your only control is purchasing them in a QB at all. And even then they may not spot the enemy, may be shot down or scared off by on-map AA units. in other words your IL-2 does not act like an F15 dropping a GBU-12.

Very interesting, I like it!

One more question if you can answer it, this works the same way for the Germans I am guessing right? I know they had FAC's but I assume at this stage of the war they weren't capable of carrying air strikes out like that anymore due to the beating the Luftwaffe had been taking?

Thanks!

[HistoryLover]

The German Luftwaffenleitoffizier was paramount to the success of the Blitzkrieg tactics and they were embedded in the leading tank spearheads.

German tactical airstrikes with the precise Sturzkampfbombers were very effective.

The problem for them was, that they needed air superiority over the battlefield because the JU 87 in the air were lame ducks for enemy fighters and as longer the war went on, the weaker the German airforce became. And the ever increasing air defense also reduced the importance of the diving bombers.

[Battlefront.com]

That's probably going to be the case. Currently the Germans have the ability to call in air strikes directly. While theoretically they had that capability (Hell, they invented it before the war started), in reality the conditions to allow for it were so few and far inbetween by this point that it seems wrong to allow them to do it.

The way it is for CMBN and CMFI is even a stretch. But it was a stretch we had to make because we didn't have the time to code the "random" attacks. As many of you here know very well, we don't see big value in this feature because tactical air attacks at CM's scale/scope were almost unheard of in WW2. Therefore, we haven't wanted to divert our attention into a feature which arguably shouldn't exist at all.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

The German Luftwaffenleitoffizier was paramount to the success of the Blitzkrieg tactics and they were embedded in the leading tank spearheads.

German tactical airstrikes with the precise Sturzkampfbombers were very effective.

The problem for them was, that they needed air superiority over the battlefield because the JU 87 in the air were lame ducks for enemy fighters and as longer the war went on, the weaker the German airforce became. And the ever increasing air defense also reduced the importance of the diving bombers.

Yup, earlier in the war this was very true. But as the war went on, especially with the vast distances in the East, this became harder and harder to use effectively. And in almost all cases it was outside the scope of CM.

What would happen is German forces would find something that needed a little extra "persuasion" to move, stop their attack, get authorization for an air strike, find the air controller, get the air controller into position, pull back to a safe distance, wait for the aircraft to arrive, wait for them to attack, wait for recon to assess whether the way was clear, then start the attack again. This could take several hours to happen. Which for the day was as amazing as microwave pizza would be to someone back in the 1800s. However, from a CM scale it's just slightly outside our scope.

Steve

[sburke]

That's probably going to be the case. Currently the Germans have the ability to call in air strikes directly. While theoretically they had that capability (Hell, they invented it before the war started), in reality the conditions to allow for it were so few and far inbetween by this point that it seems wrong to allow them to do it.

The way it is for CMBN and CMFI is even a stretch. But it was a stretch we had to make because we didn't have the time to code the "random" attacks. As many of you here know very well, we don't see big value in this feature because tactical air attacks at CM's scale/scope were almost unheard of in WW2. Therefore, we haven't wanted to divert our attention into a feature which arguably shouldn't exist at all.

Steve

And the really beautiful thing is that if I agree with you I can just not include it . To be honest I am not sure I have played a scenario yet that has included air power.

[John Kettler]

MikeyD,

From everything I've read, the Russians had a huge fratricide from air support problem, which is why you see some quite remarkable top markings when you look at color 3-views. This fratricide issue was a big problem even in the Battle of Berlin--atop Katyusha attacks and artillery also from friendlies. That race to the Reichstag business.

Regards,

John Kettler

[MikeyD]

Apparently While Western armies tend to think in terms of Companies, Battalions and Regiments, Russian armies tended to think in terms of Brigades, Divisons and Corps. The fate of a mere Platoon or Company wasn't going to stop the steamroller from rolling forward even if it meant grinding them beneath your own wheels.

[John Kettler]

MikeyD,

I guess the Russian players had better fight battalion level engagements. That way, they'll be able to survive friendly air attack! Would also note that, even during the Cold War, having air support or not was decided by the Front commander. There is explicit reference to this in Clark, The Battle of the Tanks, where he talks about how the Front commander, whose name escapes me, switched from having a smallish, constant air presence over the battlefield to putting in one massive strike. An entire Air Army! That strike did real damage, reportedly leaving the area covered with burning trucks and tanks.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Vark]

So Soviet CAS is identical in nature to CMBB, where it appeared randomly and attacked units. I hope the lethality has been turned down, the rocket strikes seemed overly effective, often KO'ing the main gun.

[John Kettler]

Vark,

Forget the rockets (aerial version of 82mm BM-8). Worry about the PTAB HEAT bomblets! Wonder whether the Germans will get their bomblets? Mmm. Bomblets. SD-1 and SD-4HL!

Regards,

John Kettler

[mjkerner]

Loved those bomblets in IL2 Sturmovik. Devastating!

[John Kettler]

mjkerner,

A very strong argument for Panzers to avoid assembly areas and choke points! Just learned about the SD-4 HL. What I read said it could pierce 5" of armor, which ought to be adequate to ruin the tankisti's day.

Regards,

John Kettler

[sburke]

Yup, earlier in the war this was very true. But as the war went on, especially with the vast distances in the East, this became harder and harder to use effectively. And in almost all cases it was outside the scope of CM.

What would happen is German forces would find something that needed a little extra "persuasion" to move, stop their attack, get authorization for an air strike, find the air controller, get the air controller into position, pull back to a safe distance, wait for the aircraft to arrive, wait for them to attack, wait for recon to assess whether the way was clear, then start the attack again. This could take several hours to happen. Which for the day was as amazing as microwave pizza would be to someone back in the 1800s. However, from a CM scale it's just slightly outside our scope.

Steve

In an interesting aside historically.

In Guderian's XIX Panzer Corps and the Battle of France there is a section describing German CAS procedures and the grid they used. It seems Major Fritz Bayerlein (later to command Pz Lehr)was tasked to come up with the procedure as major issues were identified as problems in early march war games. Specifically the maps used by the army and Luftwaffe were of different types.

In an example they cite " a normal request went through Division to the corps CAS officer (Nahkampffuhrer II) of IInd Air Corps (Fliegerkorps II was the direct air support for XIX Pz Corps)

in this specific example apparently the 1st Pz Div operations officer requested permission for the Panzer crews to talk directly to the Stuka pilots to guide them to targets and identify the line of friendly troops. The first part was refused on the grounds that their technically inferior equipment would not allow for this. For the second, red or purple smoke grenades or swastikas were to be used as identification markers.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I wonder if this means US and UK CAS will also no longer be on-call after the 3.0 update.

[Fizou]

I wonder if this means US and UK CAS will also no longer be on-call after the 3.0 update.

Just what I wanted to ask. Im super excited for CMRT but Im also very excited for the fact that all the great improvements in 3.0 will be able to be carried back to CMBN and CMFI.

The only problem is that there is to little time to play and enjoy all of these games

[Michael Emrys]

I wonder if this means US and UK CAS will also no longer be on-call after the 3.0 update.

Historically it should have a limited availability. Late in the Normandy campaign and all through the pursuit phase that followed, certain units—usually armored spearheads—would have an air force officer embedded with VHF radios in his own armored vehicle who could call on cab rank air support that would arrive fairly quickly to attack specified identifiable targets. Also, larger missions could be laid on, but those required a longer lead time, like a day or two, and lie outside the CM scope except as a preplanned strike.

Michael