12,000 Point Video AAR

[Ithikial_AU]

Title says it all.

A 3km plus sized map by Wyntergreen.

Dutch Grenadier commands the Waffen SS formations while Strachwitz commands the mechanised American forces.

Yours truly is the neutral observer, cameraman and commentator.

Additional parts are sitting here ready to be uploaded in the near future. Subscribe for auto updates when additional videos go online.

Cheers guys and enjoy.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Very interesting!

Nice map. Is it available for download somewhere?

[Fenris]

Lol at me, first thing I did was try to mouse wheel down to change the view...

Watching now.

-F

[Lt Belenko]

Lol at me, first thing I did was try to mouse wheel down to change the view...

Watching now.

-F

We all do that when watch youtubes of CM.

[A Canadian Cat]

Very interesting - I don't normally watch these long videos but this time I'm going to. The forces look interesting thanks for doing this.

Question for you: what was the delay on the air support? In other words when is it going to arrive?

[Ithikial_AU]

Very interesting - I don't normally watch these long videos but this time I'm going to. The forces look interesting thanks for doing this.

Question for you: what was the delay on the air support? In other words when is it going to arrive?

From memory 10 mins. Pretty sure I keep tabs on each sides support options in later parts. Memory is a bit hazy as I did record these early parts months ago.

When Dutch and Strachwitz advertised they were going to attempt this I offered to record and watch as they went along, as I was curious how much you could push the engine and if the gameplay could hold up commanding this many forces on map at once. I half suspected CC would break down and it would turn into a shooting gallery mess. Glad to say it doesn't and I think that is largely down to the size of the map and the ability for both sides to spread out and maneuver. Goes to show how important terrain is in this game.

[cjslax6]

Looks awesome. Thanks for doing this.

[A Canadian Cat]

When Dutch and Strachwitz advertised they were going to attempt this I offered to record and watch as they went along,

Very interesting idea - I don't think we have seen a third party doing an AAR before. That alone is interesting IMHO.

as I was curious how much you could push the engine and if the gameplay could hold up commanding this many forces on map at once. I half suspected CC would break down and it would turn into a shooting gallery mess. Glad to say it doesn't and I think that is largely down to the size of the map and the ability for both sides to spread out and maneuver. Goes to show how important terrain is in this game.

Oh yeah for sure. This map is big for sure. The 20 000 point battle that Dungeon Tiger and I are fighting is on a 2km by 2km map and that feels pretty big. The game can handle it for sure.

[DaddyO]

Terrific to see you back in action with CM video AAR's. Loved the TWO new ones.

[Odin]

Wow that is epic. I think the max I've played is a 5000-6000 pointer.

I would love to see some P-47 rockets smash the back doors off those tigers. Looking forward to seeing how this one pans out.

[WynnterGreen]

Nice map. Is it available for download somewhere?

Just added this map to GreenAsJade's Mod Warehouse.

http://cmmods.greenasjade.net/mods/5108/details

It's saved as Meeting Engagement for Quick Battles.

Enjoy.

[vincere]

This is an awesome AAR. Thanks for publishing this to all three of you.

I've watched three this morning and going back to part 4 now. Maybe we'll see more biggies with engine 3.

semi Spoiler:

Couple of observations:

1. Dutchy really pushed aggressive on his left and centre left and was punished. Looks like it's paying off a little now though, especially with the long range tank duels.

2. Really interested to see how and where the US side commits his large infantry reserves.

3. Sounded to me like you have a little bias to Dutchy, is that because you usually play with the grey pixels, or am I just projecting my bias? :-)

Finally, great map. Really opens the combat and tactics up more with longer ranges, tactical manoeuvre.

[Lawrence]

Watched all four installments back to back today. Fantastic entertainment. I am really looking forwards to the rest. Many thanks.

[vincere]

Watched all four installments back to back today. Fantastic entertainment. I am really looking forwards to the rest. Many thanks.

Finished four and left in suspense for part 5.

Ah mann, Dutch Grenadier severely punished by the path finding traffic jams! I would have been screaming expletives at the replay at the last ones. :-D

[WynnterGreen]

Ah mann, Dutch Grenadier severely punished by the path finding traffic jams! I would have been screaming expletives at the replay at the last ones. :-D

Pathing is a definite issue in CM at times.

But really, if Dutch Grenadier couldn't work out decent pathing plans in basically open country, it's his own fault.

I think if Strachwitz had scouted the left side Objective, he'd have found no one home and could be pushing his whole refused flank reserve through the vacant town to sweep through Dutch Grenadiers half of the map towards the center by now.

Anecdotally, I originally made this map for a 2v2 PBEM game.

Each player took a Huge Force, for a total of 25 000 points in the field.

There were split British Infantry and US Airborne sectors, vs combined SS and Heer.

Like this game, the Germans refused a flank. The Airborne quickly overran the token defense in their sector and swung to collapse German center. Game over.

I've just made a revised version of the map, adding new territory on the German side of the map (the same as Dutch Grendaiers in this game), and added in all the battle damage and destroyed vehicles from the first game so that we can play an Attack Scenario with the Germans trying to retake the lost Objectives.

We probably wont get it started too soon though, because the same group of players are about to start a 2v2 with 40 000 points, playing on the Oosterbeek Master Map.

[vincere]

Pathing is a definite issue in CM at times.

But really, if Dutch Grenadier couldn't work out decent pathing plans in basically open country, it's his own fault.

I think if Strachwitz had scouted the left side Objective, he'd have found no one home and could be pushing his whole refused flank reserve through the vacant town to sweep through Dutch Grenadiers half of the map towards the center by now.

Anecdotally, I originally made this map for a 2v2 PBEM game.

Each player took a Huge Force, for a total of 25 000 points in the field.

There were split British Infantry and US Airborne sectors, vs combined SS and Heer.

Like this game, the Germans refused a flank. The Airborne quickly overran the token defense in their sector and swung to collapse German center. Game over.

I've just made a revised version of the map, adding new territory on the German side of the map (the same as Dutch Grendaiers in this game), and added in all the battle damage and destroyed vehicles from the first game so that we can play an Attack Scenario with the Germans trying to retake the lost Objectives.

We probably wont get it started too soon though, because the same group of players are about to start a 2v2 with 40 000 points, playing on the Oosterbeek Master Map.

I did think that a little lateral spacing with some half tracks using the field would have helped, but just know that path finding gremlin can strike even with the best intended spacing and pausing.

Great insight. Wow, 40k counterattack. Would be good to see how that and a 2v2 plays out.

By the way, should have said thanks to all four, so thank you for sharing your fantastic map.

[John Kettler]

Ithakial_AU,

Well done, sir! The mind boggles. To the point where I'm amazed I can even type. This a mere 10 minutes in on the first vid. I've never seen anything like such a map and forces in CM, but the situation also makes sense, in that the map size is no longer the typical major constraint on significant tactical maneuver. This is where phase lines and other graphical control measures would be really useful, something I've been asking for for years.

SPOILER?

SPOILER?

SPOILER?

Now, we can see unfolding before our eyes the screening and enemy locating function of the recon units, including the well-armed xxx you mentioned (do I need to censor?) but seemed to think they were something else. I note with interest some towed goodies, too. Seems TO&E trumps raging debates in another thread, or is this simply a reasonable choice given the map size?

The Germans desperately need to review their camouflage scheme, since it only seems effective in what I take to be wheat fields. Otherwise, a sore thumb is covert. Luckily for them, CM doesn't calculate spotting based on target contrast and lack of pattern match with the terrain.

At this scale, all the things I read about in military history make a lot more sense. Refused flanks, real long range fields of fire, blind spots, channelizing terrain, covered routes of approach, economy of force and more. All that Bil Hardenberger stuff. Sure,we've been doing them on a micro scale in the past, but now the battle space is greatly expanded, and time/distance issues become crucial. Screw these up, and you're pretty much done.

Were I the Germans, I'd be awfully nervous gadding about in broad daylight, with Jabos a serious issue, especially for the motorized forces. Does BFC have anything modeled like the air guard and immediate bailout drill for troops in trucks and other softskins? Achtung! Jabo!

Shall be intrigued to see whether Jabo combat effectiveness skews more to the historical JasonC end or the Sergeant Rock side of things. Maybe the Germans could borrow some of the enormous stockpile of Russian AAA to cover their Heinies. Couldn't resist and am more than half German to boot!

You have a mellifluous voice, and if you're not doing radio or VO work, may I suggest you investigate doing so? Believe you'd be wonderful narrating audio books. Having done just that on two of my own works, your voice beats mine all hollow.

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

Ithakial_AU,

In looking at the air attack, I learned something a bit disturbing. The P-47D is carrying what's practically a rocket super weapon. The 5" HVAR was not the typical rocket of the period, as seen in this Restricted manual TM-9-395, dated 12 September 1944. 4.5" Aircraft Rocket Materiel. As is clearly shown in the drawings and photographs, the typical rocket launcher configuration of the CMBN period was two triple tube 4.5" launchers, for a total of six rockets. There is a version of the P-47D in CMBN so equipped.

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/ref/TM/pdfs/TM9-395.pdf

The 5-Inch HVAR didn't finish testing until D-Day and didn't debut until the Battle of St. Lo, so the HVAR armed P47D shouldn't be available at all before that.

http://www.tarrif.net/wwii/guides/a2g_rockets_2.htm

Per the first link, the 4.5" Rocket came in two flavors: HE and SAP (Semi Armor Piercing), which really should somehow be discretely modeled in the game. The SAP doesn't cause huge explosions when it hits a tree, but the HE does, about a 105 detonation, in fact. The HVAR also came in two flavors: HE and SAP. The latter was, per link 2, a shaped charge warhead rated at 38mm penetration at normal. The fact that the SAP was a shaped charge is also reflected in the Wiki below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Velocity_Aircraft_Rocket

With all that out of the way, I'd like to know how an M10 can survive an 88mm penetrating without being K-Killed with or without a fireball? Am also pretty much of the same surprised state re a Sherman 76mm, though the latter's obviously better protected. What sort of engagement ranges are we looking at here, please. I love the long range duels, and I see some very good tactics being used by the M10s. In order to do what they're doing, they have to fight unbuttoned, since the Destroyer Commander as he's properly called, can't see out, because he lacks optics. Only the gunner can see when the M10's buttoned, and the FOV of his gunsight is pretty narrow. This is in the AAR for an M10 battalion (601st) and in a separate article from the Field Artillery Journal. These are from my earlier #754 in the same CMFI thread.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=109389&page=76

The only one who can see out when in full combat configuration (everyone below the top of the turret) is the gunner. In the Operations Report I cited in the Peanut Gallery thread and repeat below for the 601st TD Battalion during Op Shingle, there is an urgent recommendation for a periscope for the TC. Also, if you look at the Brassing Off the Kraut piece, the combat accounts talk about the extraordinary risks some of the participants underwent by standing up in the turret in order to properly fight their M10s. You wouldn't think it, but an M10 whose crew is ready for combat is practically blind. Would further note that such was the sniper threat at Anzio, crews were ordered to stay heads down throughout the day.

601st TD Bn Operations Report; see e.3

http://www.tankdestroyer.net/images/...Rpt_of_Ops.pdf

Brassing Off Kraut

http://www.tankdestroyer.net/images/..._off_Kraut.pdf

I took this from one of my CMFI posts, and it details who looks where and why in an M10. It's from my #813 here.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=109389&page=82

Here's the M10/T70/M5 ATG TD Crew Training & Drill Manual

http://www.tankdestroyer.net/images/...riage%20M1.pdf

Who does what and looks where on the march is detailed on page 34 in Paragraph 27. From there, the text carries on regarding the ascending changes as the TD nears and enters battle. Paragraph 28 says the same sector watch and observation procedures as Paragraph 27 apply when the TD is moving tactically. Paragraph 29 gets into specific combat duties, from which it becomes immediately obvious that eyeballs and sector coverage drop dramatically. Paragraph 30 is the nitty gritty chapter and verse of direct fire combat. From what I can see, your unbuttoned M10 has nowhere nearly enough eyeballs available,up and looking in the right places. Recommend you take this issue and related ones (who's up or can see what while buttoned) up with devs, since it fundamentally affects combat performance in the game.

I'd also like to know, please what version of CMBN is in use and the date of this engagement. 76mm Shermans didn't enter combat in Normandy until Operation Cobra (July 24th, 1944 first attempt and attack proper on July 25, 1944), per this groggy Sherman site.

http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/turret_types/76mm_turrets.html

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

WW II newsreel footage of HVAR firings demo vs tanks. Second plane shown is a P-47. How apt!

Ordnance technical data sheet for the HVAR. In the CMBN time frame, there was no VT fuze equipped version. VT wasn't released for combat on land until the Battle of the Bulge. Thus, only the info in columns 2 and 3 in the bottom table of this spec sheet are relevant to this game. 2 is for the HE warhead HVAR, and 3 is for the HVAR HEAT warhead, the specifically antitank weapon.

http://64.78.11.86/uxofiles/mulvaney/techdatasheets/5-IN-HVAR.pdf

Regards,

John Kettler

[Vanir Ausf B]

Just added this map to GreenAsJade's Mod Warehouse.

http://cmmods.greenasjade.net/mods/5108/details

It's saved as Meeting Engagement for Quick Battles.

Enjoy.

Awesome! Thank you.

[Ithikial_AU]

Digging up an old thread but the the battle and Video AAR Series is now complete after months of file sharing and video recording.

Average PBEM turn file was roughly 40 mb.

[PhilM]

Digging up an old thread but the the battle and Video AAR Series is now complete after months of file sharing and video recording.

Average PBEM turn file was roughly 40 mb.

Your new post has brought this to my attention - managed to miss it all before somehow. But now eagerly watching from reel 1!

Thanks to all involved for doing this, very much appreciated

[bram1979]

Well I can finnaly watch and comment. I'm Dutch Grenadier and I shall tell my story

My initial plan was to capture the both the centre and left town. The right town would be left open but under survailence from my FO. Once he had entered this town I would have shelled the crap out out him. On the far left I wanted to move fast with my recon force supported by 3 Tigers in overwatch on the hill. They would then move to the centre behind his lines. All went well untill those bloody jabo's showed up and forced me to move my Tigers from the overwatch. I quickly realised that he had the same plan and was moving towards the far left. No enemy units moved to far right town...

In the begining I scored some nice long distance kills with my PzIV's. But this did not last long. My recon forces were quite harmless against the armor moving on the far left. So I started to move them towards the centre. Indeed the pathfinding went from bad to worse but this was also my mistake that I did not correct them.

Once I lost my Tigers and realised I was going to loose the town in the centre I moved my forces to the far right. Hoping to buy some time with the forces that were left behind. To bad my panzers were mostly lost by the jabo's so all was lost.

The biggest mistake I made, and this is no excuse , was that I forgot to tell Strachwitz that we would NOT use any aircraft since I find them "cheesy" without any real AA support. (again no excuse)

Well that is basicly it from my part. Thanks Ithikial for doing this and read more of these fine AAR's or play fun games and tourneys at the Few Good Men. Loads of new tourneys and campaigns coming up with the release of CMRT

ow and thanks Strachwitz for this really interesting and fun game!!!

[womble]

The biggest mistake I made, and this is no excuse , was that I forgot to tell Strachwitz that we would NOT use any aircraft since I find them "cheesy" without any real AA support. (again no excuse)

Nah. 155mm arty would have shifted your kitties just as well, and probably cheaper and faster...

Edit: Were there any force composition restrictions in place on either/both side? Limitations on variations in soft factors and TO? How tight was Rarity set? I'm assuming there were the "broadly accepted" ME restrictions (no TRPs, no preplanned on the setup zone in turn 1, that kind of thing).

Edit 2: Seriously, I think your biggest mistake was buying so many Crack/Extreme (or Fanatic?) troops; that toughness really only seemed (from the observer's POV) to have been made to count in La Bignet, and losing them by the squadload as trucks and Halftracks got nailed made them a very expensive gamble that I don't think gave the return you'd have hoped for. Even dropping them to Veteran/High would have given you a good number more warm bodies to be active with.