Problems with ditch in MG

[beatmasta]

Not sure if this has been discussed already but I have had big problems of using the new ditch in the MG module. They seem to be quite deep and should give good cover to soldiers but instead seems to be death traps.... Or am I doing something wrong as the pixeltruppen are manning them totally wrong... When I order them to the ditch squares I would expect them to take proper cover in them but now they expose themselves very badly...

And when I order them into the ditch and give them hide command I would expect them to crawl to the deepest bottom of the ditch but no, they just lie in the edges and again expose themselves without any cover...

[Broadsword56]

Are you giving the order to split squads or to whole teams?

I would think you need to split the squads so there's room enough in the ditch action square for them to get in. But I haven't tried it.

Anyone else having this problem?

[ASL Veteran]

Pixeltruppen will not stay inside one of the new ditches if the ditch is deeper than 1 meter. I would guess that they don't go into the ditch for LOS purposes because they can't see out of the ditch if it is 2 meters or deeper. The way to avoid that is for the designer to restrict their ditches to 1 meter depth. If the designer made the ditches deeper than 1 meter then only a patch can alter that.

[mjkerner]

Pixeltruppen will not stay inside one of the new ditches if the ditch is deeper than 1 meter. I would guess that they don't go into the ditch for LOS purposes because they can't see out of the ditch if it is 2 meters or deeper. The way to avoid that is for the designer to restrict their ditches to 1 meter depth. If the designer made the ditches deeper than 1 meter then only a patch can alter that.

That's my experience too. They need to be shallow.

[Ithikial_AU]

Just playing Road to Nijmegan and had this occur. Trying to use ditches for concealment and makeshift cover as I advance up the map. At the end of the move, the Tommy's decide to move to the top of the ditch before spotting and get blasted as they are in the open before enemy guns.

[Kilroy Lurking]

I haven't come across ditches yet, but this might work for ditches:

Give short movement (i.e. plenty of waypoints) orders along the ditch.

I have just played a MG battle where I need to advance a few squads up the fields (using The cover) along the sides of a straight paved road. Given a single movement order to the end, every squad made straight for the road and strolled up the centre....to their doom. I have noticed this in other battles. Pixeltruppen take the easy/shortest way; if you really do not want your men to leave cover, give them way points to bind them.

David

[Broadsword56]

And if you're making or modding maps, also comsider putting a wire fence alongside the ditch. Some have found this encourages the troops to follow it and stay in the ditch.

[beatmasta]

The problems I've been facing are with the Nijmegen campaign. And in this scenario which I'm playing has quite open terrain and basically only cover is the ditches and as they don't seem to work properly my troops are being slaughtered while they can't get into cover...

[akd]

Please note which map/scenario is causing particular problems.

[beatmasta]

*** MINOR SPOILER ALERT****

For example the first one where I command the XXX corps and particularly the one with paras where I had to capture the island behind a bridge. That was very hard, had to restart it few times but had to adapt a tactic which didn't include hugging the dirt in the ditches

[Fetchez la Vache]

It would be nice if the 'hide' command caused the soldiers to use the ditch for cover.

[umlaut]

They seem to be quite deep and should give good cover to soldiers but instead seems to be death traps.... Or am I doing something wrong as the pixeltruppen are manning them totally wrong... When I order them to the ditch squares I would expect them to take proper cover in them but now they expose themselves very badly...

And when I order them into the ditch and give them hide command I would expect them to crawl to the deepest bottom of the ditch but no, they just lie in the edges and again expose themselves without any cover...

Bumping this one as I am experiencing the exact same problems - and finding it extremely frustrating. I hope BFC will take time to reply.

Please note which map/scenario is causing particular problems.

Playing the Heuman Lock Bridge scenario in the - otherwise - brilliant Road to Nijmegen campaign.

The problems are these:

I split my squads and order them to move into the dithces. But no matter what I do, approximately half of the troops decide that they´d rather enjoy the nice view on the high ground next to the ditches than take cover inside the ditches. And so they get cut down.

I´ve tried all combinations of facing orders that I could think of - but to no avail. The result is the same.

Also, when I order troops to move along a ditch they will move on top of the edges instead of in the ditches.

I don´t get it. What is the point of having all these nice ditches in MG - if the troops aren´t able to use them?

[Freyberg]

I haven't tried out ditches, but I find it hard to get troops to use foxholes and trenches.

[RockinHarry]

Looks like ditches, particularly the ones more than 1m deep, are considered as an obstacle to pixeltruppen, due to the slopes getting too steep towards the bottom of the ditch. The individual positioning of the ptruppen anyway seems always random and constantly evaluated. Some individual spacing is always maintained and when the random end position falls on that forbidden slope, it gets shifted til it falls on sufficiently even ground within the AS. That´s from obersvation. Facing does nothing at all obviously.

As likely has been recognized broadly, craters are ptruppen magnets and appear to be hard coded for selection as individual covered position within an AS. This can be somewhat exploited, by placing a 7L crater on top of the ditch AS, which at least improves individual positioning and cover, the more if some the randomly placed craters are on the bottom of the ditch. This is even less as an expedient and ugly looking as well, but interesting to toy with.

Just an idea: Theoretically one could provide some linear type, fixed row of 3-5 invisible craters for use in ditches, to mark the bottom as covered position. In 1m deep ditches this would provide cover and ability to shoot and in 2m deep ones, just a covered position. That off course helps nothing for moving along those ditches covered, as the pathing AI likely would spread out the ptruppen again, between each AS. Integrating this feature into the overall Tac AI surely is a different matter.

The magnet like behavior of craters has its falltrap too. They´re very oftenly prefered even before foxholes and when both a present within an AS, the ptruppen move into craters quite often.

[umlaut]

Thanks for the advice, Harry.

Unfortunately, that doesn´t help me or the other players still struggling to get through a scenario where the ditches are useless for cover.

In my view, The Heuman Lock Bridge is a broken scenario, because the ditches that were supposed to provide cover for the attacker actually provide no cover.

A pity, because it spoils some of the fun of an otherwise a great campaign for me (I´ve simply chosen to surrender this one and move on to the next mission, even though that probably means missing out on some of the scenarios in the campaign.)

I hope BFC will tell us if this is something that is going to be fixed - or if they think everything works just fine?

[rocketman]

In my view, The Heuman Lock Bridge is a broken scenario, because the ditches that were supposed to provide cover for the attacker actually provide no cover.

A pity, because it spoils some of the fun of an otherwise a great campaign for me (I´ve simply chosen to surrender this one and move on to the next mission, even though that probably means missing out on some of the scenarios in the campaign.)

I would agree that the scenario is VERY hard, but wouldn't say it is broken. I got a tactical draw in it, despite having some rotten bad luck. The key to the scenario I found is continuous suppressive fire on known enemy locations as you advance. I don't think I have ever used it more than in this case.

Hope it helps, and as you say, it is a great (but challenging) campaign.

[umlaut]

Well, that is of course only my contention. But it seems to me that the scenario has been created with the intention that advance towards the objectives should be via the ditches - using them for cover.

But as the game mechanics do not allow useful cover from ditches in this scenario you´re actually more or less advancing across open ground.

Of course I cannot say what the designer´s intentions were, but it seems odd to me to create a map with such an elaborate system of ditches - if they weren´t meant to have any relevance in the game.

And let me stress again: I think that this campaign so far has been very well designed - and I´ve really enjoyed it immensely.

[RockinHarry]

Did some more experiments with ditches, particularly the 2m deep ones. The main problem with the ptruppen not taking the full cover of ditches, is the final deployment in the AS at the waypoint. As long as they move along a ditch, they mostly form a column, if there´s time enough before they reach the final waypoint/AS, when they usually shake out and partly take positions outside the ditch again.

Bit of an awkward and time wasting solution, is to keep them moving in column and enter the ditch from the start towards the end. Set the end waypoint/AS one beyond the end of the ditch (segment), thus outside and prevent the ptruppen from reaching this till the end of the turn. Using pause of 30-45 seconds is mostly enough to keep the ptruppen moving at the bottom of the ditch and not yet reaching the final waypoint. If timing is right, one can push the cancel orders button and order hide. This locks individual soldiers in place near the bottom of the ditch.

To get out of full cover and engage the enemy from the current AS, set a covered arc so individual soldiers will reposition themselves to get a LOF near edge of the ditch. To get them back in full cover again, pause 45 seconds, set a "slow" waypoint to just behind the ditch (outside) and the remaining 15 seconds will be enough to let them crawl down the bottom, yet not reaching the waypoint before the turn ends. In next turn, cancel order again to lock them in place.

I mostly start from hide and use hunt with another hide at the waypoint, when moving along ditches. Slower movements appear to be better to enable the AI to form the desired column formation. This depends on length of the ditch off course. With hunt, about 3-4 ditch AS can be moved trough in full cover at about 15 seconds, assuming a half squad of 4-5 guys. As said, key is to set the final waypoint 1 outside the ditch and with pause command, stop the troopers in mid move in the next game turn.

Tested this without enemy units and interference on map. As said this maneuver is awkward and wastes up to 3/4 of a 1 minute WEGO turn just for this single purpose (maximum cover from ditches), so I as well hope for a true solution from BFC.