Market Garden Urban Combat Improvements

[Dynaman216]

The following line from the Market Garden maps news caught my interest right away.

"There would be a set of game engine improvements that could take advantage of urban combat"

I looked in the Market Garden threads but did not see any reference to this, does anyone know what these improvements are?

[Vinnart]

I think they will be revealed in the AAR between Cpl. Carrot and Johnsy. Hopefully they will not take too long to show whatever new stuff there is.

[womble]

I think they will be revealed in the AAR between Cpl. Carrot and Johnsy. Hopefully they will not take too long to show whatever new stuff there is.

Johnsy's already shown us some pretty sharp action in the town there, and didn't mention anything, so it might not be anything you'd see in an infantry-on-infantry fight...

[fry30]

? He hasn't even zoomed in yet, assuming he hasn't released a new video within the last hour or so. I don't think we've seen anything just yet.

Something about the inclusion of a pioneer battalion, and mandatory barricades is just one thing that stuck out to me.

A line of hedgehogs across a road/bridge would render that route impassable in normal CMBN, or has that since been upgraded?

[Oddball_E8]

Johnsy's already shown us some pretty sharp action in the town there, and didn't mention anything, so it might not be anything you'd see in an infantry-on-infantry fight...

I'm not sure how much infantry-on-infantry could be changed in urban enviroments...

Most of the qualms I have heard so far are regarding infantry vs tanks in urban enviroments.

[para]

It seems he is intentioanlly not zooming in

[adherbal]

didnt you see the smoke pop up after the shoot out .. could be one improvement

[womble]

didnt you see the smoke pop up after the shoot out .. could be one improvement

Or it could just have been Johnsy or the TacAI having threatened elements pop smoke so they could bug out. Or even (less likely, I guess) CplCarrot doing similarly so he can fall back to do it again. If it's a TacAI improvement (I don't recall my infantry ever popping smoke on their own, though that could just be down to memory failure), I hope it's not restricted to urban terrain. My point, though, is that I'd (perhaps unrealistically) expect Johnsy to mention that something new was occurring at that point, if it were, indeed, new, since that's a good chunk of the point of the AAR.

[Freyberg]

He mentioned not zooming in because the Kriegsmarine models weren't finished so he didn't want to show them.

[Dynaman216]

One HUGE improvement I would like to see would be an indication of where doors and windows are on a building without having to get down in the weeds to see it (I give orders from view level 6 most of the time)

[Cpl Carrot]

didnt you see the smoke pop up after the shoot out .. could be one improvement

Or it could be a cunning plan.

[Vinnart]

One thing that would improve urban fighting would be the return of being able to order demo charges thrown within a certain distance. In Cmx1 the words "throw demo" would appear next to the cursor if short range.

[agusto]

Maybe one of the improvements is the accuracy with wich units fire at close ranges. I ve seen scenens during my CM battles where a soldier would miss like 10 shots from a semi auto rifle at almost point blank distance at a static target. Sure, it can be axplained with combat stress, but still IMO the reaction time & accuracy of units at close ranges could be better IMO.

Or another possibility would be the ability of units to shoot around corners. That would be cool.

One thing that would improve urban fighting would be the return of being able to order demo charges thrown within a certain distance. In Cmx1 the words "throw demo" would appear next to the cursor if short range.

That would make troops carrying demo charges horribly effective :eek:.

[Seedorf81]

Climbing through windows would be pretty realistic for urban combat, wouldn't it? Makes the leaving/entering of buildings a little less dangerous..

BTW, I've been wondering why the streets still look a bit odd and unrealistically in these Market Garden maps, but in cities in the Netherlands (and I reckon in other countries, too) we have something that we call "de stoep".

It's pavement that is slightly higher than the street which runs parallel to the buildings. The width varies and in the old parts of cities the rich people showed off their wealth by putting ornaments/art/steps/banisters on their part of "de stoep". It's part of the attractiveness of old cities (I think) and it makes every street have it's own nice signature.

This is what I miss in the beautiful city-maps..

Could this be Modded?

[Seedorf81]

Sorry, forgot to show what I meant. here some pictures..

http://www.studiokoning.nl/Foto_10/Stoepen.html

[Michael Emrys]

Sorry, forgot to show what I meant. here some pictures..

http://www.studiokoning.nl/Foto_10/Stoepen.html

Very pretty. Some of the nicer ones remind me of ornamental grillwork as found in some of the US cities that were part of the French possessions, such as New Orleans and Mobile.

One example:

Modders, go to town!

Michael

[Buzz]

Very pretty. Some of the nicer ones remind me of ornamental grillwork as found in some of the US cities that were part of the French possessions, such as New Orleans and Mobile.

One example:

Modders, go to town!

Michael

Would pretty to see in game but a shame to blow up wrought iron balconies and as delicate as they appear they are VERY heavy.

[Offshoot]

Could this be Modded?

I don't think so as it would require the geometry of models to be changed, which is the least you would need to do just for aesthetic purposes. For functional purposes - to have steps leading to actual entrances - the coding for buildings would probably have to be changed as well.

[para]

Climbing through windows would be pretty realistic for urban combat, wouldn't it? Makes the leaving/entering of buildings a little less dangerous..

I mentioned this some time back.. i am pretty sure i was shot down. I can understand that in entering a building you would use the doors for quick access. Surely though, if the building was being stormed you would use any opening to exit out the back.

I would jump from upper windows to escape if i needed to!

[Maarten]

Climbing through windows would be pretty realistic for urban combat, wouldn't it? Makes the leaving/entering of buildings a little less dangerous..

BTW, I've been wondering why the streets still look a bit odd and unrealistically in these Market Garden maps, but in cities in the Netherlands (and I reckon in other countries, too) we have something that we call "de stoep".

It's pavement that is slightly higher than the street which runs parallel to the buildings. The width varies and in the old parts of cities the rich people showed off their wealth by putting ornaments/art/steps/banisters on their part of "de stoep". It's part of the attractiveness of old cities (I think) and it makes every street have it's own nice signature.

This is what I miss in the beautiful city-maps..

Could this be Modded?

It's a pretty universal thing in cities. Sidewalks, kerbs, trottoirs. It's simulated in CM mainly by placing the roads on pavement tiles and not placing the buildings directly adjacent the road.

[Seedorf81]

I don't think so as it would require the geometry of models to be changed, which is the least you would need to do just for aesthetic purposes. For functional purposes - to have steps leading to actual entrances - the coding for buildings would probably have to be changed as well.

Yeah, I understand the problems. It's just that the better the graphics (in every aspect) become, the more the remaining "non-realistic" things stand out. And the demands (from the ever unsatisfied customers) for even better/more beautiful graphics stay.

[womble]

I mentioned this some time back.. i am pretty sure i was shot down. I can understand that in entering a building you would use the doors for quick access. Surely though, if the building was being stormed you would use any opening to exit out the back.

I would jump from upper windows to escape if i needed to!

Someone posted their infantry training experience of the DS showing them the "correct" way to make entry via a window, and subsequently telling them never to do it...

[Michael Emrys]

Someone posted their infantry training experience of the DS showing them the "correct" way to make entry via a window, and subsequently telling them never to do it...

IMHO the correct way to enter a building through a window is to break the glass and toss in a five pound block of TNT. Then, when the dust settles, step in through the door.

Michael

[para]

Someone posted their infantry training experience of the DS showing them the "correct" way to make entry via a window, and subsequently telling them never to do it...

Entering thorugh a window (i would imagine) could be quite slow and awkward. It would also mean that you would be exposed for a period of time. On the other hand exiting through windows (i am only guessing here) would of been quite frequent.

[ZPB II]

While I do agree that exiting from a window is a fine choice if the option is getting burned, shot or blown up, I don't think it should be the normal mode of transit that troops use by default. (in the sense that it would be a fast, effortless and risk-free way to move from building to building)

Jumping from heights while wearing 10-50 kilograms of combat gear (just making rough estimates, I have no idea about the loads of WW2 soldiers, this is based on modern peacetime training. CM players have a tendency to stack their squads with the maximum amount of ammo, grenades and rockets possible) with an unbalanced load distribution can often end up badly. It's not very hard to fracture your legs on a hard landing or break your nose with your rifle.

Ofcourse modern special forces will infiltrate and exfiltrate through windows like a light summer breeze, but they spent quite a lot of time practicing it.

EDIT: I made some quick & rough calculations about modern wartime loads for an antitank soldier...Assault rifle 4kg + 6 loaded magazines at 1kg each (a mere 180 rounds), 2-4 antitank mines at 10kg each, 4 LAWs at 2,5kg each...

This is already at 40-60kg (88-132lbs) and it doesn't include stuff like helmet, shovel, armor, grenades...

EDIT 2: I just noticed John Kettler has threads about infantry loads both on the CMBN and CMSF forums, will check them out.

http://www.45thdivision.org/Pictures/General_Knowlege/combatload.htm

The site lists a rifleman's load as 82.02 lbs = 37.3 kg and a BAR gunner's load as 98.69 lbs = 44.9 kg. Ofcourse not all of the common equipment will be carried into actual combat, but the end result is still pretty damn heavy and will impair mobility.

Anecdotal evidence, Finnish Army in 2008, urban combat training for mechanized infantry, doors were the primary points of entry and exit, windows were taught as being slow and dangerous most of the time.