Bulletpoint Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 Well, I value my squad leader with his SMG very much. When he goes down, why doesn't somebody else from the squad pick up the Thompson? Is this working as designed? Maybe regular squaddies don't know how to handle that type of weapon? They should recruit some more mobsters from Chicago then 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fizou Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 Maybe the weapon was destroyed when the squad leader got hit? Sometimes they pick stuff up, sometimes they dont. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted July 12, 2013 Author Share Posted July 12, 2013 Didn't think of that. Could be destroyed, could be lost if it fell in tall grass or something. Anyone ever saw a squad member pick up an SMG? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freyberg Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 I've sent squad members back for LMGs a few times. Sometimes I had to be a bit patient - the time it took has varied, and they had to calm down and be right on top of their buddy, but they usually seemed to pick them up. I've had much less luck with anti-tank weapons. It could be they're more easily damaged. But I haven't really noticed SMGs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ts4EVER Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 I have seen pistol equipped troops pick up rifles, so I don't see why smgs wouldn't work. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 In the minds of pTruppen, SMG, carbine, semi-automatic rifle, assault rifle, and bolt action rifle (at least) are all equivalent. If they've got one of the above, they will not buddy aid a different one. If you want someone to salvage Sarge's Tommy Gun, you'll have to find a unit with a pistoleer in it, and hope (if the others have "proper" weapons) that he's the one who ends up administering the aid, because if the XO doesn't know which end of a bandage to start at, the top kick who ends up getting his hands dirty won't hand the poor guy a shiny new gun. 'Course, if it's a tank crew all armed with pistols, then one of them will get a spanky new gun... It's working as designed, even if it seems sometimes to make little sense (who wouldn't want an MP40 with 150 rounds off the Platoon CO, who's not fired a shot but has attracted some shrapnel, rather than their empty StG44 that has no realistic expectation of resupply?). Heavier weapons will be recovered by buddy-aid, if they are recoverable. Sometimes they're not. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted July 12, 2013 Author Share Posted July 12, 2013 It's working as designed, even if it seems sometimes to make little sense It seems to me that it could use a bit of redesign for future games or (hopefully) patches. Logic being that the SMG is a specialist weapon fulfilling a certain role in the squad, just like the LMG and the Bazooka. A squad with 1 SMG and 5 rifles seems objectively better (more versatile) than a squad with 6 rifles. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 A Thompson is not considered a 'superior' weapon to a Garand. Very much shorter range, firing the same .45 cal bullet as the pistol. Troops don't swap out for 'inferior' weapons. You're not going to see a Garand owner picking up an M1 Carbine, either. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 It seems to me that it could use a bit of redesign for future games or (hopefully) patches. Logic being that the SMG is a specialist weapon fulfilling a certain role in the squad, just like the LMG and the Bazooka. A squad with 1 SMG and 5 rifles seems objectively better (more versatile) than a squad with 6 rifles. Depends what you see the role of the SMG as. I gather that at least part of the intended role in a US squad was to keep the squad leader out of the rifle line (since the Thompson couldn't reach where a Garand could) so they would concentrate on their actual job of leading the squad. Of course, we gamey bastidges see it as a short range Kraut-chopper and task it as such (then moan that we're always short of squad leaders... ). I can see the argument that an individual soldier is acually better off overall with a Garand, since they can return fire effectively at a broader range bracket than an SMG. I don't think the AI as is gives too much weighting to "balance" in the squad. I'd certainly agree that I'd like to see some changes here. Don't know what's feasible, nor, indeed, historical, though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted July 12, 2013 Author Share Posted July 12, 2013 So a SMG is more of a "good excuse" for the squad leader to stay out of harm´s way? "Sorry guys, I would love to lead from the front, but the paper pushers decided to give me this machine pistol, so I won't be much use up there, better I guard the rear" Well, but a squad who has somebody guarding the rear has an advantage. And if you're advancing through built up terrain or hedgerows, there's always a risk the fog of war is hiding an enemy squad and when you suddenly run into enemies at close range, it would be nice to have somebody in your squad with an SMG, no? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 I'm not arguing with you, just stating what the counterargument that has been advanced is. As a player I agree with you, but the point remains arguable. You may disagree with the argument, but BFC don't and it's not like they haven't thought about it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted July 12, 2013 Author Share Posted July 12, 2013 I wasn't arguing against you either, just forgot to add some smileys 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFF Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 I've heard it said that the reason German squad leaders were given an MP40 was to dissuade them from wanting to take long-range shots at the enemy and thus instead orient their focus towards leading the squad. If that's true, it sounds like the similar reason why American squad leaders were issued SMGs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 A Thompson is not considered a 'superior' weapon to a Garand. Very much shorter range, firing the same .45 cal bullet as the pistol. Troops don't swap out for 'inferior' weapons. You're not going to see a Garand owner picking up an M1 Carbine, either. A Thompson is not an "inferior" weapon to a Garand. It's a special purpose weapon that is very good at the role it is intended to fill. I agree with Bulletpoint that when the SMG is lost the squad loses some tactical flexibility. The fact that no one will pick it up is exacerbated by the fact that the guy who carries it is usually the first one to get hit. I gather that at least part of the intended role in a US squad was to keep the squad leader out of the rifle line If CM is any indication then that was a spectacular failure. By the time my squads get close enough to the enemy to where the Thompson would shine it is usually lying in the dirt somewhere further back. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 A Thompson is not an "inferior" weapon to a Garand. It's a special purpose weapon that is very good at the role it is intended to fill. I agree with Bulletpoint that when the SMG is lost the squad loses some tactical flexibility. The fact that no one will pick it up is exacerbated by the fact that the guy who carries it is usually the first one to get hit. If CM is any indication then that was a spectacular failure. By the time my squads get close enough to the enemy to where the Thompson would shine it is usually lying in the dirt somewhere further back. I don't think CM is a very good indication in this case. Mine do tend to make it to close contact, since I look after my split Assault Teams with great care. Doesn't help with the Leader being a shrapnel magnet, but does preserve them from direct fire until they're needed at the pointy end. Interesting that the game requires you to actively direct the squad leader to remain out of the firing line. One of the additional exacerbating factors with squad leaders getting geeked is that the best place to see from (which the squad leader wants to be in, according to the TacAI, since they have the vision aids) is also a good place to be shot in. If a given AS only offers one spot that will allow vision in a given direction (and therefore probably only one spot that's exposed to fire from that direction), the SL will be in it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baneman Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 I've heard it said that the reason German squad leaders were given an MP40 was to dissuade them from wanting to take long-range shots at the enemy and thus instead orient their focus towards leading the squad. If that's true, it sounds like the similar reason why American squad leaders were issued SMGs. Yeah, too bad BFC haven't yet implemented a max. range restriction on the SMG's in game 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 it would be nice to have somebody in your squad with an SMG, no? There is at least one Thompson SMG at the bottom of a tributary to the Sittang River, tossed there by a disgusted LCpl MacDonald Fraser as soon as he managed to get himself a Lee Enfield. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 It seems to me that it could use a bit of redesign for future games or (hopefully) patches. I wouldn't hold your breath. Buddy Aid was added as a way for players to do something about the unsightly mess their inability to lead men in battle was leaving about the place. Weapon recovery got added, almost as an after thought. That got promptly turned that on its head, and pastoral care went out the window, because all a lot of players seem to want is "moar free stuf!" But players wanting free stuff doesn't really map well to any of BFC's objectives. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baneman Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 ...pastoral care went out the window, because all a lot of players seem to want is "moar free stuf!" But players wanting free stuff doesn't really map well to any of BFC's objectives. But it's neither "moar" nor "free", it's what you had a minute ago before Hans took a .30 cal ... But as far as throwing away stuff goes, I'd love my guys to throw away their Stg44's when they're out of ammo and buddy-aid a useful weapon. Unless BFC are going to add some form of 7.92K resupply in the next year or so. Because bizarrely, unlike the MP40 and MG42 carriers, the guy with the Stg44 always seems to survive. And, since he blew all his ammo area-firing at 300m like the MP40 guy, he's invariably a completely useless element of the squad. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 Buddy aid, or no buddy aid, Hans still has an extra ballistically induced aperture. Recovering Hans' goodies is a freebie. Selectively recovering Hans' goodies turns buddy aid on its head. It's not about Hans anymore, it's about his goodies. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackcat Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 There is at least one Thompson SMG at the bottom of a tributary to the Sittang River, tossed there by a disgusted LCpl MacDonald Fraser as soon as he managed to get himself a Lee Enfield. A quick aside: if you haven't read George McDonald Fraser's "Quartered Safe Out Here" linked to by JonS I really do recommend that you do so. It is one of the best narratives of war at the level of the private soldier you will ever come across. The campaign he talks about is Burma in '45, but the truths he expresses are universal and, as regards the British Army, in my experience, eternal. It also contains a good description of the use of a PIAT in action, which contradicts many of the things that have been said about the use of that weapon on these forums over the years. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted July 13, 2013 Author Share Posted July 13, 2013 I do buddy aid to... aid my buddies basically. So more of them will aid me in the next map too. The extra ammo is just an extra. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 I try and get buddy aid to as many as possible so I have to write fewer letters to next of kin. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 Yeah, that writer's cramp can really mess with your trigger finger response time. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 Blackcat - I want to check out the book but without having read it (and so not knowing if he liked the PIAT or not) I would say that many of the things said about PIATs on the forums here were definitely about PIATs used against tanks in Europe. German tanks in Europe were definitely much more formidable and common than Japanese tanks in Burma, and so the PIATs role would be more against infantry strong points, or used as a ad hoc mortar (which in British soldier memoirs even into Korea they said it did well) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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