How to do good recon?

[Bulletpoint]

One interesting thing I've noticed is that if there's just a slight curvature to a field, LOS will be blocked for troops in prone position. The player might assume that the far side of the field is clear, because he has had a whole platoon watching it for 5 minutes, and because from above, the field looks flat as a pancake, but once the troops stand up, ur just cross the little mound at the base of their hedgerow, they pop into view of hidden defenders on the other side.

It's often necessary to LOS-check every angle manually, to know where your troops have had a chance to spot.

[A Canadian Cat]

Isn't this in fact a lesson in mine clearing? Which reminds me - is there any safe way of crossing a minefield - or at least "more safe"? It seems the slow move order makes fewer mines go off, is it just me imagining things?

There is no safe way to cross a mine field. Yes, slow sets off fewer - or at least at a slower rate

In a real minefield, it seems to me the best way to cross would be at a full sprint.. less times your foot steps down, less risk of stepping on a mine, right?

Hell no. The best way to deal with a mine field is to stay the hell out of it. Discussing running vs walking through a mine field sounds like a topic that only someone with no real legs and arms to loose would bring up.

[Bulletpoint]

About jeeps: I still haven't used them to good effect, but I have the idea that in this game they are basically useful as noisemakers. They can quickly cover a lot of ground, and their noise and big shape makes sure that any hidden enemy will open up on them.

So they might be good for quickly establishing where the front line will be, saving you tonnes of time inching across empty fields (I've tried that several times, 2 hours of real-world time scouting across landscapes before coming in contact with anything).

However, I still don't like the idea of throwing away valuable troops and vehicles simply to find the enemy. In real life, I think jeeps were not really used in this way, when the troops arrived at the battlefield, the role of jeeps and trucks was over. The player doesn't see the 300 km spent in that truck before the game starts, but that's where the humble jeep and truck did their part.

[Bulletpoint]

Hell no. The best way to deal with a mine field is to stay the hell out of it. Discussing running vs walking through a mine field sounds like a topic that only someone with no real legs and arms to loose would bring up.

I wasn't asking for safe ways to deal with minefields, rather the best way to cross them, if you absolutely have to. Say, if you were a soldier in the Red Army and your officer was standing behind you with a loaded pistol.

Also, sometimes you might find yourself in the middle of a minefield, so you need to get out of it.

In real life, there are ways to do this, but they cannot be used in the game.

So, as for my question, hypothetically, running through should be safer than walking or crawling, wouldn't you think?

Rationale: You can't see the mines, so walking or crawling doesn't let you avoid them, but has you step down many more times, which equals larger statistical probability of hitting a mine.

But I guess some of the mines might be wire-triggered. In that case it would be better to go slow, to give you a chance of spotting the wires.

[Michael Emrys]

But I guess some of the mines might be wire-triggered. In that case it would be better to go slow, to give you a chance of spotting the wires.

Exactly. Plus you are far better able to control where you step if you do spot one. Also, some mines had triggering prongs that extended above the soil but would be hard to see unless you were being very alert and methodical (read: slow).

Michael

[A Canadian Cat]

I wasn't asking for safe ways to deal with minefields, rather the best way to cross them, if you absolutely have to. Say, if you were a soldier in the Red Army and your officer was standing behind you with a loaded pistol.

OK, I was giving you a hard time because I was picturing you as the Red Army officer forcing his men through the minefield

Then the answer is what @Michael Emrys said.

[Michael Emrys]

Regarding jeeps: as you note, they are a little out of place on the typical CM battlefield. They were used extensively though where the location of the enemy was uncertain (on the CM battlefield you know where he is within a kilometer or less usually). So you take a situation like the pursuit across France and Belgium in August '44, where recon elements either from division or corps were being pushed ahead of the main force to make contact with the enemy, jeeps were used extensively. The idea was that once you were shot at, you had made contact and jeeps were the most expendable units for the job. But they weren't actually expended at all that high a rate. The drivers and crews were not enthusiastic about being expended, and the experienced ones were savvy enough to do their job while living to fight another day.

Typically, they would be likely to spot a possible location for a German ambush or roadblock. They would then debus behind cover and advance on foot to a point where they could observe the suspicious location for a while. If that revealed nothing, they would return to the jeep. Hopefully by this time some of the unit's armored cars or better yet light tanks would have closed up and would provide covering/suppressive fire. If recon by fire still revealed nothing, then the jeep would break cover to see if it would draw fire. But don't think they would be just casually moseying along. They would be driving fast and zig-zagging radically to try to make themselves more difficult targets. If the road was clear, fine and dandy and the pursuit would continue. If they drew fire, hopefully their backup would take care of it while they ran for cover. But yes, sometimes they got blown up. War is hell.

Michael

[womble]

...you send 3-4 individual scout teams forward at the same time? Wouldn't it be better to just send one full squad then?

No, for two reasons:

First, 3 pairs is less than even an 8 man squad.

Second, the pairs only have rifles. You're not putting valuable automatic weapons out in harm's way "on spec".

This doesn't seem to work well in the game as in real life, as suppression takes some time to build up, and from the time the enemy starts shooting at your exposed guys, to the time your fire team returns fire and actually causes suppression, the whole group in the open could well be dead.

Obviously it depends on exacly how deficient your initial probe with Scout teams actually was. If they failed to notice an entire platoon in the opposite hedge, then there's something squiffy going on, in all likelihood. But in the end, it's a balance of probablities and speed of advance. You could send a team across and wait for them to inspect the entire hedgeline, 3 AS at a time. Or you could take a risk that your follow up teams might get tagged by an MG team off to one side that didn't fire at your scouts. Part of the judgement of being in command. You have to be sure your base of fire can drop the hammer on anything that does poke its head up to have a pop at your lead elements.

Regarding the use of jeeps: you're pretty much correct that once most CM scenarios start, the role of the MG jeep is over. They don't even really carry enough ammo to contribute meaningfully to your base of fire.

[MikeyD]

Recce in hedgerow fighting is a real pain, actually. You can't see beyond the next hedgerow and if the enemy does open up on you its usually at a lethal range. The worst of both worlds. Not a complaint about game mechanics, there were real reasons why we hated hedgerow fighting in Normandy and were happy to get clear of it.

I recall one old ('43?) tanker's tactical manual that said the best way to cross minefields is to cross them and accept the consequences. Somewhat cold blooded but the previous big war had been the bloody carnage of WWI. Nobody was making believe that mass casualties could be avoided. I'm not sure that was instituted very often, except in the rare 'big push' setpiece assaults.

[Wodin]

Read any AAR by Bil...you can learn alot from him.

[arpella72]

Recce is always tricky and dangerous.If I have jeeps,I send them forward to a certain point where I dismount the crew to check out by food.I have recently readed an Osprey book about the Six Day War in the Sinai and there is a description of an atack in an egipitian village called Khan Yunis:

"Part of the 7th Brigade reconnaisance company led the way across the border at the norther crossing,moving in single file to minimize the threat from mines(...)However,as the head of the column came to the narrow streets in the outskirts of Khan Yunis they were fired upon and soon a number of burning recce vehicles was blocking the route"

A witness told that. "A shell hit an Israeli half-track before it could get off the road.All eight soldiers inside were killed"

The recce vehicles used by the israelis were American M-3 half-tracks that perform very well even though they were considered obsolete at that time.

[YankeeDog]

Regarding jeeps: as you note, they are a little out of place on the typical CM battlefield. They were used extensively though where the location of the enemy was uncertain (on the CM battlefield you know where he is within a kilometer or less usually). [snip]

This is a very important thing to remember, especially when comparing CM gameplay techniques to "Real World" doctrine and action. In CM, what you're usually trying to determine is the exact location of specific enemy units. I usually think of this as "Movement to Contact" (MtC), rather than "Recon," in order to create a semantic distinction. MtC is a job better done by dismounted squad infantry and heavier armor, not light recon vehicles.

As Michael and others have noted, recon formations mounted in vehicles like Jeeps and armored cars are better for searching across larger distances. If a retreating enemy is thought to be setting up a defensive line somewhere along a 25km line of advance, then creeping forward on foot by 50m bounds is not practical. In this situation, the attacker needs to maintain momentum, advancing rapidly in order to attack before the defender has time to dig in and establish a strong defense. But simply blundering forward with his main force risks ambush, so small recon units that can move rapidly head of the main force are useful as much to learn where the enemy is not as to learn where he is.

Once the main bodies of both sides are within an area the size of a typical CM map, the job of the "recon" units is mostly done. On larger CM maps, they still have some utility in their primary "recon" role, but on smaller maps I usually find it's better to just stick vehicles like jeeps and halftracks in a safe place to use as ammo resupply points, or, if they have a radio, sometimes I put them near an on-map mortar battery to serve as a radio link.

At times, I have actually found the inclusion of recon vehicles by scenario designers to be an unnecessary distraction, and wished I could simply move them off the map to get them out of the way. Sending an MMG Jeep or M8 Greyhound into contact with an established MLR is generally suicide. IME, it's usually better to just park vehicles like this somewhere out of the way to avoid giving the enemy casualty points, and use any associated mounted infantry on foot.

Some CM scenarios do attempt to model the "battle before the battle" -- preliminary engagements of advancing recon forces vs. lighter enemy defensive units attempting to stall or block -- and here the presence of recon vehicles is obviously appropriate. This type of fight can be fun to play and isn't necessarily unrealistic if designed well. Recon units carried weapons for a reason. Generally they were expected to "test" enemy resistance they encountered to determine whether it was a bona fide defensive position, or just a small delaying/blocking force. If the latter, recon units were expected to be able to handle light resistance on their own and keep moving forward; they wouldn't be very useful if they tucked tail and ran every time they took a few MG bursts.

[womble]

Sending an MMG Jeep or M8 Greyhound into contact with an established MLR is generally suicide. IME, it's usually better to just park vehicles like this somewhere out of the way to avoid giving the enemy casualty points, and use any associated mounted infantry on foot.

I find they're okay at taking over and maintaining some of the suppression pressure application while your infantry (which generated the initial suppression) moves (and hence isn't firing) to assault range. You definitely don't want them being the ones taking the first peek though.

[YankeeDog]

I find they're okay at taking over and maintaining some of the suppression pressure application while your infantry (which generated the initial suppression) moves (and hence isn't firing) to assault range. You definitely don't want them being the ones taking the first peek though.

Yes; I have used them at times this way with some degree of success. But I do find it's very easy to get overconfident when using them in this way. The small amount of armor on Halftracks and Armored Cars in particular can be misleading; many vehicles of these types are still quite vulnerable to MG fire from many angles and it's easy to lose them to a burst from an enemy MG gunner who is a little less suppressed than you thought.

Given a choice, I'd usually rather have another infantry MG team to use for fire support rather than an armored car or halftrack. But in designed scenarios, you have to work with what you're given.

[Michael Emrys]

...so small recon units that can move rapidly head of the main force are useful as much to learn where the enemy is not as to learn where he is.

An additional function of mounted recon in fluid situations (actually their main function most of the time) is route recon. That is, finding where there are mines, cratering, or other obstructions on roads that the main body intends to use and exploring alternate routes. These alternate routes, while on secondary roads or even trails, may be better alternatives for rapid advances until the primary roads can be cleared of obstruction.

While it is theoretically possible to construct a CM scenario or campaign that reflects this, it would require some imagination and a deft touch to pull it off and make an interesting game for two players.

Michael

[Vanir Ausf B]

Recce is always tricky and dangerous.If I have jeeps,I send them forward to a certain point where I dismount the crew to check out by food.

The inventiveness of players amazes me. I had never considered the idea of leaving food out in the open and then observing from a distance to see if enemy soldiers approach looking for a quick snack. I bet it only works against the AI.

[Michael Emrys]

The inventiveness of players amazes me. I had never considered the idea of leaving food out in the open and then observing from a distance to see if enemy soldiers approach looking for a quick snack. I bet it only works against the AI.

Actually, I took that to mean that when his recon troops pull into a French village, the first thing they do is to check out the local cafes and bistros. If the food is good, they contact HQ with a recommendation to set up here.

But your reading does have merit.

Michael

[Vanir Ausf B]

Your version of the tactic is probably closer to reality.

[A Canadian Cat]

The inventiveness of players amazes me. I had never considered the idea of leaving food out in the open and then observing from a distance to see if enemy soldiers approach looking for a quick snack. I bet it only works against the AI.

That tactic only works when fighting bears in CM Bamff

[agusto]

LOL

(10 characters)

[Michael Emrys]

That tactic only works when fighting bears in CM Bamff

Beg to differ. Also works fine in Yellowstone, although occasionally a tourist or two get eaten.

Michael

[LukeFF]

If I have jeeps,I send them forward to a certain point where I dismount the crew to check out by food.

Leaving bratwurst out is a great way to find out where the Germans are.

[poesel]

Leaving bratwurst out is a great way to find out where the Germans are.

Yeah, but you need to acquire German bratwursts first. American or, god help us, British sausages would be immediately recognized as traps. Polish would work, however.

[agusto]

A fresh, cold Weißbier is the best bait for catching Germans on a hot summer day

After looking at that picture, i want one now, lol. Oh my god i want one so badly...

[Baneman]

A fresh, cold Weißbier is the best bait for catching Germans on a hot summer day

After looking at that picture, i want one now, lol. Oh my god i want one so badly...

Oh my god, me too ! Why did you post that ? Why ?