Michael Emrys Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 I think I'd get a modest amount of infantry, a couple of companies at most, and invest heavily in LOTs of artillery with at least two FOs (in case one gets zapped or can't see a critical part of the map) and a generous helping of registration markers (they are cheap, so you shouldn't scrimp on those). Get a few ATGs if you can find good places to put them. Mine the hell out of the objectives; he might take them, but he'll pay a steep price. And place your infantry one row of buildings back from the objectives. Naturally, you will want to site some MMGs where they can cut down his inf. before they can reach the objs. but save a few to place with your inf. to annihilate any of his inf. that survive the mines in the objs. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted April 11, 2013 Author Share Posted April 11, 2013 Are you taking the piss out of my previous game's strategy, like my mate c3k? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted April 11, 2013 Author Share Posted April 11, 2013 Whoa - heads up - newsflash!!! Patton got word of what some middle ranking commander ordered me to do - the defense of Arterna. "What the **** are you fools doing setting up to defend a fixed fortification like that?" he said. "If there are Elefants coming, you should get out there and hunt them down, and rip their guts out, not hide away in some hillside resort like a mob of jerry poofters". Translation: based on Bil and my planning so far, it looks like this map will not be especially entertaining. So we're looking at an alternative, with perhaps not such impressive scenery as this one, but more room for interesting manoeuvre. GaJ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agusto Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 OK - so now that you have looked at the today's picture of Arterna, on Google Earth, here's what it looks like in May 1944... ... as you can see, not nearly as built up as today In fact, this is not really an urban battle, it is defense of a small down in flat country (with lots of defensive overwatch ) That is a great choice for a map to play . I have wanted to see more of that map from the moment i saw a bit of it in the Gustav Line videos with the AA guns that came online last week or so. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 Translation: based on Bil and my planning so far, it looks like this map will not be especially entertaining. So we're looking at an alternative, with perhaps not such impressive scenery as this one, but more room for interesting manoeuvre. GaJ Thank god. I didn't want to sound too negative, but I hated that map and I think it would have been an easy win for the attacker. Especially when the attacker is Bil It would have been a lot better if the objectives were just moved to the upper city parts. But it still would have been mostly a head-on slog decided by firepower. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 I think I'd get a modest amount of infantry, a couple of companies at most, and invest heavily in LOTs of artillery with at least two FOs (in case one gets zapped or can't see a critical part of the map) and a generous helping of registration markers (they are cheap, so you shouldn't scrimp on those). Get a few ATGs if you can find good places to put them. Mine the hell out of the objectives; he might take them, but he'll pay a steep price. And place your infantry one row of buildings back from the objectives. Naturally, you will want to site some MMGs where they can cut down his inf. before they can reach the objs. but save a few to place with your inf. to annihilate any of his inf. that survive the mines in the objs. Michael Before they decided to change the map I was thinking along similar lines except to an even greater extent. I would have purchased a Pak-front -- or whatever the American equivalent is called -- maybe with foxholes. Then I'd have brought a lot of artillery including at least 1 8 inch (203mm) battery for tank busting. I don't think I would have bothered with mines or TRPs since there's really nowhere to put them other than right on the VLs. I may or may not have taken a tank or 2 depending on availability of hull-down positions and lines of sight. I would have gone very light on infantry, maybe one company, or whatever minimum the house rules allow. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted April 11, 2013 Author Share Posted April 11, 2013 Yes - I think this is the sort of scenario we could see unfolding: each side throwing firepower brute force at the other. Hence the thought that we'll move the battle... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vencini Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 But, but...This map is...MONTE CASINO! ;-) Thanks for the two AAR. I read allways this forum with interest to learn. I've see the armchair videos to learn tactics in WW2. I read manuals about infantry tactics fighting in Bocage...I known how to move the units in the map, but I feel, I still give "bad" orders to my units... - Could some one recommend some (free) read :-) about WW2 tactics in Italy? - Could be possible to do this AAR according to those tactics? Thanks again and regards! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 We're all into Patton at the moment - he said "Fixed fortifications are a monument to the stupidity of man". Ask him about Metz some time... Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 Yeah, my thoughts were that the secondary outcropping would be very important to the defense. (To gain the heights over the town, the attacker's right flank would be the key. Up that slope, then across the saddle to the top of the town.) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted April 11, 2013 Author Share Posted April 11, 2013 So, I think that the new battle ground is chosen. The US forces have rushed to face the Elefant and rip out it's guts, at Santa Maria Infante... This looks like a fascinating place to do battle! Here is the view from Obiettivo Centrale... As you can see - a town on a road that leads down a ridgeline towards the enemy, with lightly wooded farmland on the slopes on either side. Over at Strada di sorveglianza Obiettivo... we can see that the trees are very sparse - a good view from here up the left approach, at least as far as the middle of the map, but no-where really good to hide. Over at Città Obiettivo we see: ... that there are more trees on the approach ... at the sort of density that will be fickle for cover and concealment, and still not likely to slow tanks at all. The eagle eye view: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted April 11, 2013 Author Share Posted April 11, 2013 (I have to note at this point that the VLs are still under review, so I won't put to much thought into plans based on their exact location) From the attacker's end: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanzfeld Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 For this one remember: "He who defends everything, defends nothing." 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted April 11, 2013 Author Share Posted April 11, 2013 VL location uncertainty aside, here are some thoughts. What I know now about Bil (unless he decides to suddenly change style to throw me off) is that he's going to start with recon across the whole front, and he doesn't have a specific plan of attack... what he does will depend on what he finds. Seems pretty basic and simple eh? But it makes me think about this: I can control what he finds, so does that mean I can control what he does? And if I can, what would I like it to be? On the assumption of lots of Tigers, Panthers and an Elefant, I need these things to keep bumping into death-by-surprise. A pitched armour battle doesn't sound like a good idea at all, except if I can get his beasts up close. That will have to be later in the battle, as he's trying to take the VLs. Earlier in the battle, I need decent concentrations of anti-tank mines, and ways to persuade him to drive over them, plus random surprises from ATGs and Shreks. I can't see much reason for him to be bringing infantry at all. Maybe he needs a few platoons for recon, and a bunch to take the Central Objective, which is all buildings. One thing that I'm aware of is that he is going to have a huge force, and I can't rely on him not splitting it. A lot was made, last battle, about "not splitting your force", but actually Bil split his force last game, and also in the first game I played against him. It's quite possible he'll do so again in this battle. It must be tempting to bring a force up each side of the map. I'm not sure what to make of the central ridge. While in theory you'd think that forces there will be "most exposed", actually the way that the trees come up to the road as it slopes away means that there it's hard to get a look from anywhere on the map to that ridgeline. Here is what it looks like from the attacker's point of view, after moving along the road past Right Tit: ... basically, nothing out there can see you, nothing can look down on you. Moving along, it's not till you get to the Sunken Road intersection that the defender has places that might see you: Food for thought. It's my bedtime. I think that at this early stage I'd like to invite all your thoughts and suggestions. As soon as the battle gets going, you're not allowed to make suggestions due to intel leak etc ... but right now I can't see why you shouldn't. What do you all think? GaJ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted April 11, 2013 Author Share Posted April 11, 2013 For this one remember: "He who defends everything, defends nothing." Yes for sure! All that real-estate between him that the VLs: the purpose of that is purely for traps and slowing him down. He can have it, otherwise. Similarly, it does seem wise to have a plan to hold 2 out of 3 VLs as "a good outcome" and be ready to surrender one of them. Which one will likely depend on the attack, of course. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 "Left Tit" and "Right Tit"? Did Emrys make this map? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanzfeld Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 Setup zones as well will be interesting to see on this one. I want to see how far forward you can plant some AT mines. Oh, I am sure you already know this but that sunken intersection? TRP city! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 "Left Tit" and "Right Tit"? Did Emrys make this map? http://www.history.army.mil/books/wwii/smallunit/smallunit-smi.htm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinnart Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 What do the allies have at this point to deal with an Elefant? 90mm AA? If so, can it take it put with a side hit? Any armor with tungsten rounds available? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanzfeld Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 What do the allies have at this point to deal with an Elefant? 90mm AA? If so, can it take it put with a side hit? Any armor with tungsten rounds available? I'm thinking AT mines and/or heavy arty. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 I think you should have some armor, say a platoon of M10s, because of their mobility. You can't count on being able to move bazookas very far very fast once Bil shows his hand, and ATGs you probably won't be able to move at all. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hister Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 Getting out that Elephant should be done with a combo of anti tank mines (but knowing Bil it's unlikely he would drive that beast on untested trails and thus get it immobilised) and air assets (best bet is on air assets though). Can you get air assets at all? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sequoia Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 I'm curious, defensively the Elefant rules, and it would do well against armor but how many HE rounds would it carry? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 Wait till night, then use your FLARES to ignite his fuel tanks! (Oh, never mind.) Smoke, flanks, mobility. His fight will be standoff. Yours will be the knife. Place men in spiderholes with naval rounds and hammers. That'll be the key against Elefants. Any defender incapable of tactical movement is merely a speedbump. If you want to DESTROY his force, it's offense. If you want to DELAY his force, then bodies. A combination may help. Neuter his long guns by good defense positions. Where you don't have the luxury of reverse-slope, you'll depend on discipline, camouflage, entranchments, and obscurants. The BEST obscurant is to make his lead tank a pyre! I envy your men: they will have many opportunities to seek glory! Unleash them! Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vark Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 I would think about counter-recon, forcing him to use more and valuable assets to achieve his purpose. Don't just deceive, blind him, win the recon battle, which is often least sexy but most important battle, perhaps some AC's to take out his and some jeeps for mobility and modest anti-armour capability. I'd also second the platoon of TD's, to set up rolling ambushes, with info from the screening forces and some P-47's might be nice! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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