Can you always hear on-map mortars firing?

[HHaase]

Ran into this one in a game currently running. Conditions are dusk and thick haze, so visibility is of course really bad. As a side note, I LOVE how the sight ranges are actually going down as the game progresses. So far, almost 30 minutes into the 45 minute game, I have yet to see a single marker of suspected enemy positions. Recently my opponent let loose a few mortar rounds, and this turn he fired off smoke rounds from the same mortars.

I've noticed that in the quiet of this battlefield, I can hear his mortar tubes firing on my speakers. Moving around the map, I then noticed I can hear variations in the volume, and left/right direction on my speakers. Via this, I've pretty much identified exactly where his mortar team is. In the spirit of honesty I've also let him know I've noticed this.

But I still find it strange how not a single one of my units is generating a single marker of enemy positions. This location is well outside of what the current visual range is in the battle. But yet I can track down the exact location of his mortar team. Is this something that always happens, but I haven't noticed it before?

-Hans

[Fuser]

It always happens according to my experience, if you take the time and patience to travel around the battlefieldyou can locate guns, mortars etc without even seeing them,...a Fog of War Bug if you ask me,...

[Agua]

Is this something that always happens, but I haven't noticed it before?

-Hans

Pretty much. Your camera has to be in a position from which the sound may be heard. Yes, you can run around the map and come pretty darned close to where the mortars are based on sound.

[Erwin]

Doesn't that simulate rangefinders and experienced ears who put the info together from different vantage points?

[Childress]

You locate the approximate position of the enemy mortar through sound analysis. Then what?

[Pak40]

Sounds realistic to me. Mortars are certainly quieter than your normal howitzers or cannon artillery, but when a battlefield is quiet I'd bet that the mortar tubes can be heard across several hundred meters of ground.

[Childress]

It's more troublesome that my solitary Scout, hundreds of meters from the nearest unit and lacking a radio, can report back intel on enemy formations.

Edit: Or does he just relay generic icons? I forget...

[Holman]

It's more troublesome that my solitary Scout, hundreds of meters from the nearest unit and lacking a radio, can report back intel on enemy formations.

Or the fact that a shadowy figure spotted hiding in a treeline 400 yards away can be immediately identified as the company CO or forward observer or AT gun ammo carrier or 2nd squad--not 1st or 3rd--instead of just as a shadowy figure in a treeline.

[poesel]

Mortar detection and ranging has always been in the game. It is the unfortunate child of the perfect sound system. Maybe BFC finds a way to blur the origin of unspotted mortars.

[Childress]

To repeat: the mortar, you tediously located, is behind a church toward the back of the map. What exactly are you going to do about it? The recon value is nugatory.

OTOH, you fix the position of an AT gun. There you have an outside chance getting LOS and dropping a bomb on it. If the spot is precise.

Somewhat O/T: Does the game simulate smokeless powder?

[poesel]

To repeat: the mortar, you tediously located, is behind a church toward the back of the map. What exactly are you going to do about it? The recon value is nugatory.

Chances are that the mortar is firing in direct mode. So he has LOS to some of my troops so i can have LOS back to the mortar with my mortar. Or suppress him with a HMG. Or I have found his mortar units in the back with the radio and drop artillery on them.

Many things I shouldn't be able to do because I shouldn't be able to pinpoint a mortar to an AS just by repeating the replay.

Not a big thing or game breaker. But something that hopefully will be addressed sometime. IIRC this came up first closely after CMBN came out (dunno about CMSF). So it's something people stumbled over more than once.

[John Kettler]

HHaase,

Welcome aboard!

From the Counter-Mortar section of the fabulous (you'll see why once you start exploring it) site British Artillery comes this.

http://nigelef.tripod.com/tgtacqcb.htm

(Fair Use)

"The problem was that mortars did not make as much noise as guns, the sound of a 3-inch or similar mortar firing traveled about 4000 metres and 4.2-inch 6000 metres."

(Fair Use)

So, mortars should be hearable, unless otherwise drowned out, at CMBN ranges. What shouldn't be happening, though is that your "ears" go with the camera, for that provides information you wouldn't have and couldn't get.

I wonder if there's a logic setting which would disable the audio feed once the camera is no longer over a friendly unit or blob thereof? I think it should be doable and would make a worthwhile restriction on exaggerated target detection and ID capabilities. By no means is this statement confined to mortars, either.

Childress,

If you look at the target location accuracy criteria at the above site under Counter Battery, you'll see that what you term "nugatory" (full marks on a seldom seen word) is quite usable for counterfire. Typically, location accuracy is 100-200 meters. But if you really want to know where that pesky mortar is, and you're patient and methodical, you can do Crater Analysis to help determine the precise position of the problem tube. Here's how you do that. Groggy and fun!

http://tinyurl.com/d9ngm7t

Mind, this countermortar analysis is a bit (okay, a whole lot) outside of CMBN scope. In closing, I'd observe that mortar acoustic signatures are not the same as those for tube artillery. Firing velocities are much lower, for one.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Childress]

If you look at the target location accuracy criteria at the above site under Counter Battery, you'll see that what you term "nugatory" (full marks on a seldom seen word) is quite usable for counterfire.

Thanks, John. You're my role model! (vocabulary-wise) I used NUGATORY in a Wordscraper game yesterday: 57 points. The 'G' was a blank.

But if you really want to know where that pesky mortar is, and you're patient and methodical, you can do Crater Analysis to help determine the precise position of the problem tube. Here's how you do that. Groggy and fun!

http://tinyurl.com/d9ngm7t

I'd rather stick needles in my eye.

But thanks for the input!

Cheers.

[Erwin]

"I wonder if there's a logic setting which would disable the audio feed once the camera is no longer over a friendly unit or blob thereof? I think it should be doable and would make a worthwhile restriction on exaggerated target detection and ID capabilities. By no means is this statement confined to mortars, either."

Wouldn't that make the game go silent when not near a friendly?

[MG TOW]

Can't you actually see where the rounds come from tho. If you look at the POI you can see the rounds before they hit the ground. If you pan the camera back from the impact you can visually trace the origin and watch the rounds lobbing in. I think that being the case mortar rounds should be invisible in flight.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I'm not sure what determines when or if you can see the shells. Sometimes you can see them incoming, sometimes not. I don't think you can usually see them on the upward curve of the arc unless the firing mortar itself is visible.

[Childress]

Not a big thing or game breaker. But something that hopefully will be addressed sometime. IIRC this came up first closely after CMBN came out (dunno about CMSF). So it's something people stumbled over more than once.

Emrys discovered this little exploit, if memory serves. With all that spare time the man has to be a trust fund baby.

[John Kettler]

Childress,

Clever response. BTW, Dad had a compilation of Korean War cartoons from Stars & Stripes (his war, Navy). In it, two GIs are in a cave as the landscape's plastered with artillery fire. The caption is priceless. The one on the radio says to his buddy. "They want us to go out and measure the craters, to ascertain the direction the fire's coming from."

Erwin,

I'm not talking about shutting off the general sound, merely disabling the ability to project sharp ears forward of one's own troops. Restated, the audio would remain on, but the audio information that was hearable would never be better than what could be heard from one's own side. I wish to prevent impossible capabilities from providing unrealistic advantages. I think it should be doable, but we need someone with a programming background (no, not a cult) to enlighten us.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Childress]

Clever response. BTW, Dad had a compilation of Korean War cartoons from Stars & Stripes (his war, Navy). In it, two GIs are in a cave as the landscape's plastered with artillery fire. The caption is priceless. The one on the radio says to his buddy. "They want us to go out and measure the craters, to ascertain the direction the fire's coming from."

Haha, that's great. Sounds like Bill Maudlin.

BTW, the Wordscraper 'scrabble' play actually occurred. Are you a member of Facebook?

[Michael Emrys]

I'd rather stick needles in my eye.

Oh cool! Can we watch?

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Emrys discovered this little exploit, if memory serves.

Yeah, within two or three months of the game coming out. I had done something similar in CMx1, but it wasn't as useful there as the sound location was not as precise back in the day.

With all that spare time the man has to be a trust fund baby.

I have a very rich uncle.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Haha, that's great. Sounds like Bill Maudlin.

Yeah, I think my very favorite Mauldin cartoon has Willie and Moe (or whatever their names were) in a foxhole with a StuG parked right on top of them. Willie is whispering into a handytalky to the artillery command, "I gotta target for ya, but you're gonna have to wait."

:D:D

Michael

[mjkerner]

Close...Joe!

[Michael Emrys]

Close...Joe!

Of course! How could I forget?

[facepalms]

Michael

[sburke]

Of course! How could I forget?

[facepalms]

Michael

I believe that is SIG material