Hooooooraaa!!!

[Pandur]

not sure where to post this, any news on east front game that i missed?

there is winter season now, ferdinand or elephant not sure(screenshot No2), new machingun changes to cut down vodka soaked human waves. all primed for the east.

you have me waiting since 2007, cant be bothered to go to italy, no interest, normandy is cute but thats it, ...need ... east front "tovarish"!

[weapon2010]

Normandy is cute?Where do you "Eastern Front is the only Front" guys come from?I love Eastern front too but just enjoy the game "system" on all fronts.Your missing out!

[noxnoctum]

It's supposed to come out this year IIRC.

[Freyberg]

Normandy and Italy are both awesome, but I'm also really looking forward to 'CMBB'x2

[76mm]

Where do you "Eastern Front is the only Front" guys come from?

We come from Moscow, of course! And not all of us think Normandy is cute, some of us think it is boring (bocage, meh).

Wasn't too psyched about Sicily but am looking forward to Gustav as a nice warm up for Bagration.

[noxnoctum]

Ya bocage bores me to tears. It's too limiting, and if you're playing the AI it makes its weaknesses that much more apparent.

Playing through Conrath's Counterattack right now is such a refreshing change.

I can't wait for Bagration. Even though 1-to-1 has its issues, seeing an SMG company of PPSh toting mechanized infantry individually modeled and blasting away will be nice indeed .

[Wodin]

For me the best games (as I said for me) haven't come out yet..East front series, Gustav Line (I'm going to buy the pack) and Shock Force 2.

CMBN is a touch boring as I find the late war West front abit boring to be honest. If I'm going to the West front I prefer the start of the War and even a hypothetical Operation Sealion. However the East front where it's at for me nations at their best at times fight it out. Huge variety of battles and terrain types aswell as weapons over the years. Good selection of nations involved aswell.

Never been keen on Africa, but do have an interest in Crete (also hypothetical Malta Invasion) and mainland Italy.

[Pandur]

Dont get me wrong here, when i say normandy is cute i mean it, i spent quiet some time with normandy game. i dont mean that in a bad way. and yea bocage blows, its hard to make meaningfull AI planes in such terrains and its boring to fight in. i did not rly play a single larger bocage scenario in normandy game. i cant be bothered.

well, somehow i am glad east front is not out yet. imagine east front would have been out in 2007, in horrible shape barely playable, what a letdown.

so, they had shockforce, normandy and italy game plus the modules to get the engine tested and fixed for the big show down.

but i guess there has been no news on east front what so ever while i was away? i know moon/steve and the lot like to make comments in the threads that vanish into the dephts of the forums withing days. never to be seen again by anyone that did not read it at the time. i guess i missed a lot of these posts.

[Wodin]

Think we are looking at end of year\Xmas time for the EF game.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I suppose I will be the contrarian here and say that western Europe 44-45 is my favorite theater and time period. And I love bocage because it empowers infantry, something CMx2 desperately needs. What bores me are open maps. You know when you see one of those that it's going to be decided by who has the last tank.

East front is fun for a change of pace, but it's always bugged me that the Soviets never developed a decent infantry-portable anti-tank weapon during the war.

[Wodin]

I prefer Inf fighting myself with say just three maybe four Tanks in support. Yet set in the east:)

[Pandur]

And I love bocage because it empowers infantry, something CMx2 desperately needs. What bores me are open maps. You know when you see one of those that it's going to be decided by who has the last tank.

very interesting view, i can totaly understand this from a scenario designers viewpoint. i as player dont mind playing the tank game and tanks and weapons slugging it out over distances the infantry can only dream to achieve, never gets old for me

however as scenario designer i feel the "overtankisation" is a problem and i think it is only a problem on smal and medium sized maps which are the most common in CMx2. on these maps failure can not be equaled out by statistics where you loose part of your force and go on and make it better but you loose 1 or 2 tanks and you are done for as this "is" all your tank force.

the less critical units you have the harder failure is punished when you loose one, this brings out the ugly side in smal combined arms scenario when you and the enemy got 1 or 2 tanks each and one side lost them all. the map will be smal enough for the tank to dominate most of it or in critical situations race to other parts of the map without fear of destruction.

when you up the scale of the map these problems are greatly reduced i think.

but yes, bocage got the effect you mentioned and i dont rly like it, yes it reduces game(screnario) inherent problems with smal to medium scenarios and acts as a buffer that in some way buffers failure to win the "tank game", but still despite this effects i still dont like it.

there will allways be some sort of "tank game" in my favourite scenarios

[Michael Emrys]

imagine east front would have been out in 2007, in horrible shape barely playable, what a letdown.

so, they had shockforce, normandy and italy game plus the modules to get the engine tested and fixed for the big show down.

A point I have been making for at least a couple of years now.

Michael

[Macisle]

I suppose I will be the contrarian here and say that western Europe 44-45 is my favorite theater and time period. And I love bocage because it empowers infantry, something CMx2 desperately needs. What bores me are open maps. You know when you see one of those that it's going to be decided by who has the last tank.

East front is fun for a change of pace, but it's always bugged me that the Soviets never developed a decent infantry-portable anti-tank weapon during the war.

This pretty much sums up my view. I never played CMBB much because lots of armor and open spaces with gentle elevation changes are rather boring to me. I'm an infantry guy at heart.

I am rather looking forward to Bagration, though. I do like East Front. I just want maps that are infantry-friendly.

[Macisle]

I prefer Inf fighting myself with say just three maybe four Tanks in support. Yet set in the east:)

That's what I'll probably spend most of my time with Bagration doing. I like East Front, but West Front 44-45 is still my fav.

[76mm]

In anticipation of the upcoming East Front game, I recently played the Panzer Camaigns Minsk 44 game. Fortifications, swamps, and rivers pretty much sums it up.

So hopefully this game will include plenty of scenarios from operations other than the intial stages of Bagration. Also, I haven't read enough about Bagration to know if the Sovs conducted many river assaults, but given all of the rivers in the area it would be great to get assault rafts back (in any event, I know that did some river assaults later in the campaign).

[c3k]

Such a large part of the East Front involved fighting in city outskirts, villages, woods, rough terrain, etc., that there is plenty of fodder out there to reduce the 4km sightlines. Those big open spaces did exist, but only in certain areas.

Look towards Kharkov, for example. Or, from the middle of Army Group Center's zone all the way up to Leningrad. Villages, woods, etc., make up a LOT of the ground, which is hilly and broken by streams and rivers. Not great tanking country.

[Wodin]

Such a large part of the East Front involved fighting in city outskirts, villages, woods, rough terrain, etc., that there is plenty of fodder out there to reduce the 4km sightlines. Those big open spaces did exist, but only in certain areas.

Look towards Kharkov, for example. Or, from the middle of Army Group Center's zone all the way up to Leningrad. Villages, woods, etc., make up a LOT of the ground, which is hilly and broken by streams and rivers. Not great tanking country.

Very true..Ukraine Steppe is the long distance tank country. As you said all kinds of terrain in other areas.

[76mm]

...but it's always bugged me that the Soviets never developed a decent infantry-portable anti-tank weapon during the war.

heh, who needs infantry-portable anti-tank weapons when you have anti-tank mine-dogs, sheesh!

[Sublime]

The infantry AT problem did occur to me as well when I started playing Sicily. It really changes the game, and IMO made a lot of games a lot less fun. Once your armor was killed it was really hopeless for your infantry, ESPECIALLY since BFC chose not to model grenade bundles, Puppchen, Heftholladung, etc. Hopefully for the Ost. Molotov's would be nice too. CM Ost Front is still my grail too, but it was disquieting to me when I played Sicily and went back to Normandy fairly quickly. However Gustav line looks great, have to see how it plays though.

Why didnt the Soviets ever get Bazookas via Lend Lease?

[Markus86]

The infantry AT problem did occur to me as well when I started playing Sicily. It really changes the game, and IMO made a lot of games a lot less fun. Once your armor was killed it was really hopeless for your infantry, ESPECIALLY since BFC chose not to model grenade bundles, Puppchen, Heftholladung, etc. Hopefully for the Ost. Molotov's would be nice too. CM Ost Front is still my grail too, but it was disquieting to me when I played Sicily and went back to Normandy fairly quickly. However Gustav line looks great, have to see how it plays though.

Why didnt the Soviets ever get Bazookas via Lend Lease?

+1

I'd also like to see enhanced infantry at capabilities.

[noxnoctum]

Am I missing something? When a tank is close to infantry IME, they get knocked out pretty quick (by regular grenades). I just assumed the AT grenades were kind of "included" in the modeling of the anti infantry ones.

BTW, this is a different issue, but how do I get my engineers to use satchels offensively (i.e. against infantry in sandbags/trenches or against a tank), I'm having trouble with that.

[YankeeDog]

Am I missing something? When a tank is close to infantry IME, they get knocked out pretty quick (by regular grenades). I just assumed the AT grenades were kind of "included" in the modeling of the anti infantry ones.

Ya; IMHO, if anything, CBMN/FI are pretty favorable to infantry as far as armor close assault goes. What you see in-game may be abstracted as infantry throwing grenades at tanks, but if you can get infantry within an arm's throw of armor, the success rate is actually fairly good and as such I've always assumed that "specials" like grenade bundles etc. are abstractly factored in.

As far as I see it, the most significant area where CMBN/FI really nerfs infantry is wrt use of projected IAT weapons (Bazookas, Panzershrecks/'Fausts, etc.) from buildings. IRL, this was certainly possible albeit with some pretty significant restrictions. In CM currently, it's simply impossible and this creates a level of confidence for armor maneuvering through urban terrain that is probably not realistic.

So, as things stand now, I think the modeling of infantry defending against armor in natural terrain is pretty darn good. It's in urban terrain that infantry gets a bit of the short end of the stick. And even this is case specific. For example, British infantry with PIATs do not experience the same urban terrain restrictions that Americans with Bazookas, and Germans with Panzershrecks/Panzerfausts do.

BTW, this is a different issue, but how do I get my engineers to use satchels offensively (i.e. against infantry in sandbags/trenches or against a tank), I'm having trouble with that.

AFAIK, there is no way for the player to directly control this. However, units with demo charges most certainly will use them offensively given the opportunity. If you can get close enough, demo charges are very effective against armor. I have also seen them used against enemy infantry in close proximity.

[noxnoctum]

So just use area fire in close proximity rather than blast?

And I agree about the armor in urban areas. I wish we could just use them in buildings. Might be especially glaring in the Market Garden module.

[Michael Emrys]

Why didnt the Soviets ever get Bazookas via Lend Lease?

Some were sent for testing, but the Soviets didn't like them and declined further offers. Maybe the warhead in their view was too small to be effective?

Michael