Gustav Line QB AAR - Peanut Gallery: No GaJ, No Bil

[GerryCMBB]

Curious why they don't do an AAR of a scenario even if the scenarios are in playtest. This would give both players a more balanced forced for the relative tasks at hand. And remove the part of the debate about force selection. Maybe would give BF a chance to highlight better the new forces in the game.

Gerry

[ChrisND]

Many thanks to Bil and GaJ for putting on a great show. It's a lot of work to put together a clear and entertaining AAR. And then you have to deal with the peanut gallery picking apart every move from the sidelines... :eek:

Thanks for entertaining the forum members while we wait for release!

[Vinnart]

A huge part of any QB is the force selection. That will drive the battle. I have muffed that portion of a QB many times.

I agree choosing a good force suited for the terrain is critical. Also, the player who has had more experience on a particular map has an edge. If one has played a map a few times while the other player has never played that map the player who knows it better has the advantage. Each map has its sweet spots. Because of this I like to do at least one dry run against the AI before a QB on a map I have no experience on. This helps in ironing out plans, force selection, and getting acquainted with good positions that each map offers. Doing homework, and training for a fight never hurts.

[Offshoot]

My only regret was not seeing your FJ get up close and nasty on his guys. I am curious now to play some more with British paras as they seem to put out a lot of lead.

Yeah, given they were the new elements in the game they didn't get too much of a showing with the armour fight going on. I would personally have preferred an entirely infantry battle on this map, or given the force selections of each, if the start areas had at least been swapped.

From this battle, it sort of looks like the Brit paras are good in a close skirmish whereas the German ones do well standing off and letting their organic mortars do the work.

It's a shame about the spotting GaJ. There were a couple of instances where you could have done some damage if you had seen Bil's forces.

[Bil Hardenberger]

I agree that I could have won with the forces that I had but different play. Or at the very least, I could have provided much more of a fight.

I do not agree that my plan was a "shot in the dark" nor that "I had the impossible task of shifting forces". This isn't where the problem was.

I agree that you could have won with the forces as purchased it was a powerful force.

The problem was that I had a good plan and I did not stick to it. For some reason, I had a brain fart and decided to move my tanks away from my main force and up onto the horrendous plateau, despite having previously assessed that as "the place to stay away from" - an assessment that was proved correct by events. There was absolutely no good reason for this decision - it was a crazy impulse.

My tanks were supposed to be supporting the right flank thrust, keeping his Shermies away from getting direct lines of fire onto my troops (stopping them coming over the crest as one ultimately did do), while I piled indirect fire onto his troops. (*)

Hmmm.. well I believe that a plan made without sufficient intelligence on the enemy is most likely doomed... so I do not really think that is where you lost the battle. Rather I think you really lacked in the recon stage of the battle... I truly believe that is where the game was won and lost.

I think that this in a nutshell is what turned a very interesting encounter (two different force selections) into a wipeout. As soon as I turned the game into an armour duel, I lost it. The rest of my tactical mistakes were significant but secondary.

Well that may indeed be the case... I love the armor game.. my favorite aspect of these games. I would not have shifted my center Sherman over to the right side of the map if your tanks had not been there... and when I read just a little bit ago that you shifted your tanks from your right all the way to your left I was shocked.. I thought they were there the entire time and were just being hidden in the background.

I have to say I am still stunned by the lack of spotting that I got from the back right corner. It's been observed that I had little intel. Actually I had two units up the back there with binoculars looking over 2/3rds of the map. The fact that Bill was able to walk his force up through the ruins and onto MonteP without being seen is a complete surprise to me, and another significant (but also secondary) factor in what went wrong.

Not sure what to say there... I used the gullies for all movement in order to keep a low profile and to keep you from seeing them. Got lucky I guess... but most of the troops that were on my right (your left) actually came in through the back door that you had no eyes on.. and I knew you had no eyes on that entry as my Stuarts were keeping a close watch.

... I am not joking: I think it would be extremely interesting for all to see them put their money where their mouth is, and I could do with the education on purchase selection, battle plan, use of units and general skill that this would surely provide.

I think your force purchases were fine.. handled only slightly differently and the game could have easily been yours.

[Michael Emrys]

I think that the next one should be between slysniper and emrys.

*groan*

I was pretty sure somebody was going to come out with that one. Not gonna happen though. My place is up in the box, not down on the field.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

I think your force purchases were fine.. handled only slightly differently and the game could have easily been yours.

The same point I was making.

Michael

[Vanir Ausf B]

Curious why they don't do an AAR of a scenario even if the scenarios are in playtest. This would give both players a more balanced forced for the relative tasks at hand.

What makes you say that? There are a lot of scenarios out there with poorly balanced forces. At least with a QB you have no one to blame but yourself.

[Childress]

Curious why they don't do an AAR of a scenario even if the scenarios are in playtest... Maybe would give BF a chance to highlight better the new forces in the game.

Gerry

Yes, it was an odd choice if BF's promotion of the upcoming module was the priority. Bil and GAJ's battle could have been played unaltered, aside from the FJs, in the base game.

[Chops]

Curious why they don't do an AAR of a scenario even if the scenarios are in playtest. This would give both players a more balanced forced for the relative tasks at hand. And remove the part of the debate about force selection. Maybe would give BF a chance to highlight better the new forces in the game.

Gerry

I agree. The choice of terrain, time of day, season, weather and force selection was really lacking in aesthetics and not very interesting tactically. Overall, a poor choice to showcase the new module.

[sfhand]

Well, since you're both here now, GAJ, Bil, thanks for the time and effort you put into your AAR's, it was much appreciated.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Well, since you're both here now, GAJ, Bil, thanks for the time and effort you put into your AAR's, it was much appreciated.

Same here. I followed this AAR more closely than any of the other recent beta AARs.

[Gumboots]

Same here. I followed this AAR more closely than any of the other recent beta AARs.

+1

It was great to read and really appreciate your time and effort in making the screenshots and commentary so interesting.

Now, BF, when do we get to pre-order!

[slysniper]

Well, I see I stirred up some feathers with my comments. Sorry GaJ, for the attack at your efforts and that my comments came at your expense. Just having a little fun and you have to admit you placed yourself in a situation where you would be opening viewed by others as to your play.

So I will give you credit for your efforts and taking the time to do the post along with the playing of the game.

As for providing the next AAR – you will all love this. (Since I always say things that are not politically correct)

From what I saw in comments and lack of ability to not give information out as to what the opponent is doing or as to gain a understanding as to what is about to happen because of certain remarks. I would not consider it a good option to post an active AAR. I can see an AAR can only be posted as it should be, once the complete game has been played already. Where there is no chance for knowledge that should not be known given to the other side. So not good entertainment since we are all waiting and looking for the next new thing to talk about and this was a way to spend some of that time.

Now, Bil, just as I mentioned from the beginning did not disappoint me, He is a good player and I knew what to expect and he did not disappoint me. He is classy in his approach and comments – a Gentleman.

I would love to meet and play against him in a tournament or something where I know we were both playing blind and that we had as much lack of knowledge possible as to the battle we were to face against each other. To win or lose a battle like that is what really floats my boat. For if I win, I win a worthy opponent, if I lose, I lose to someone I can respect because their skills are what bring them victory.

[Bil Hardenberger]

Now, Bil, just as I mentioned from the beginning did not disappoint me, He is a good player and I knew what to expect and he did not disappoint me. He is classy in his approach and comments – a Gentleman.

I would love to meet and play against him in a tournament or something where I know we were both playing blind and that we had as much lack of knowledge possible as to the battle we were to face against each other. To win or lose a battle like that is what really floats my boat. For if I win, I win a worthy opponent, if I lose, I lose to someone I can respect because their skills are what bring them victory.

Aw shucks Sly. Next you'll be asking for my phone number

[Bil Hardenberger]

From what I saw in comments and lack of ability to not give information out as to what the opponent is doing or as to gain a understanding as to what is about to happen because of certain remarks. I would not consider it a good option to post an active AAR. I can see an AAR can only be posted as it should be, once the complete game has been played already. Where there is no chance for knowledge that should not be known given to the other side. So not good entertainment since we are all waiting and looking for the next new thing to talk about and this was a way to spend some of that time.

FWIW I agree with you.. the BETA AAR I did for CMBN was done after the game was long over and I really enjoyed the back and forth between myself, Warren, and the community... that was probably the favorite of my AARs.. these live ones are less fun because there is so little interaction, and none between the participants.

Bil

[slysniper]

vs. a guy who hates playing QBs. Really hates playing QBs. Man, does he hate playing QBs. Did I mention he hates playing QBs?

LOL - Yes I love to slam the QB and those that Love them, but it is not to say I have not played them. And to tell you the truth, I am not sure what my win loss record is in them but I cannot remember losing hardly any. So if it was about that aspect, I should love them.

I just dont enjoy them for some reason. Maybe it is because of how I play them, with the forces so balenced in general, i take my time and play a game that waits and takes advantage on any weakness i find within what i see in the opponants play. So it normally takes a lot of time and slow play to get the results i want, I find it boring and unrealistic as to what one would normally be doing in a real battle conflict, that is all.

But yes, you understand me perfectly.

[slysniper]

FWIW I agree with you.. the BETA AAR I did for CMBN was done after the game was long over and I really enjoyed the back and forth between myself, Warren, and the community... that was probably the favorite of my AARs.. these live ones are less fun because there is so little interaction, and none between the participants.

Bil

I did not know that, but yes, that allowed you to be a active part of the discussion and propably gave you a few smiles since everyone was speculating but you knew what was already played out and could see comments leading to or not as to coming events.

[Vinnart]

I just dont enjoy them for some reason. Maybe it is because of how I play them, with the forces so balenced in general, i take my time and play a game that waits and takes advantage on any weakness i find within what i see in the opponants play. So it normally takes a lot of time and slow play to get the results i want, I find it boring and unrealistic as to what one would normally be doing in a real battle conflict, that is all.

I think the reason they can become stalemates waiting for an opening is mainly because of many of the maps, and placement/size of victory locations. Many of the maps are symmetric balanced mirror images with one VL right in the middle.

As far as QB maps go I enjoyed Cmx1 better with the random map generator. It made more natural looking non-mirrored maps. Not to say that there are no good QB maps in CMx2, but many are very cookie cutter IMO. This maps that GaJ, and Bil played didn’t look too bad. Both had hills and valley’s, but not perfectly mirrored. The VL wasn’t jut a single one in the middle too.

When it comes to VL’s having one single VL right in the middle invites a battle that can become very slow, and stalemate feeling waiting for an opening. Another mistake designers make is making VL location too big, which makes it too easy to get a single unit on it when the other player may have most of it dominated. A map with many smaller VL’s spread out makes for much more interesting battles that can offer more approaches than just a rush to single VL in the middle.

[Bil Hardenberger]

Bill fights the way we were trained...scouts out! U.S. Military has always been obsessed with intel and information and it is drummed into your head...the four Fs...Find them...Fix them...Flank them and then Finish them...Bill so far has been text book and we are about to see the final F played out "finish them"

Yes indeed, as a product of the US Army I do tend to play like I was taught (though often I get lazy)... when it comes down to it battlefield tactics are really simple to understand but a bear to master... patience and attention to detail are the keys. Also, never create a plan of attack until you understand or have an inkling of what your opponent is planning or how they are arrayed.

This game against GaJ was the perfect storm I think... he had a plan and by god he was going to stick with it.. sure he diverted his armor, but IMO that wasn't necessarily a bad thing.. the error was not being flexible enough to abandon the attack on his right or the advance on his left when it became obvious that those avenues were being blocked.

IMO he should have left a defending force (platoon) on his right and then attacked and seized the center when his right flank assault ran into difficulties. The center was the key to this battle.

I on the other hand only started making decisions on where to commit once I had a good idea of what I was facing... and then I think I was flexible enough to abandon my initial impulse (attack his left side force) once the combat power differential changed, ie. the arrival of his armor on that flank.

Bil

[slysniper]

I think the reason they can become stalemates waiting for an opening is mainly because of many of the maps, and placement/size of victory locations. Many of the maps are symmetric balanced mirror images with one VL right in the middle.

As far as QB maps go I enjoyed Cmx1 better with the random map generator. It made more natural looking non-mirrored maps. Not to say that there are no good QB maps in CMx2, but many are very cookie cutter IMO. This maps that GaJ, and Bil played didn’t look too bad. Both had hills and valley’s, but not perfectly mirrored. The VL wasn’t jut a single one in the middle too.

When it comes to VL’s having one single VL right in the middle invites a battle that can become very slow, and stalemate feeling waiting for an opening. Another mistake designers make is making VL location too big, which makes it too easy to get a single unit on it when the other player may have most of it dominated. A map with many smaller VL’s spread out makes for much more interesting battles that can offer more approaches than just a rush to single VL in the middle.

good point as to looking for a good map to play

[Seedorf81]

GAJ and Bill,

thanks for nice (plenty) screenshots and thorough descriptions of motives, plans and doubts.

Alas, I must confess that I had hoped for a more vicious and lasting battle. I think the terrain on this specific map doesn't allow for a complex "hide and seek" battle because of it's relative openness.

And so I wondered; suppose Gaj had bought AT-guns instead of mortars (and maybe even in stead of his tanks)?

I'm no fan of AT-guns in the game, mainly because they're mortar-magnets, but do you think that two or three of them on this map could have made a big difference?

[Bil Hardenberger]

GAJ and Bill,

And so I wondered; suppose Gaj had bought AT-guns instead of mortars (and maybe even in stead of his tanks)?

I'm no fan of AT-guns in the game, mainly because they're mortar-magnets, but do you think that two or three of them on this map could have made a big difference?

No I don't think so... I think he needed to stay mobile.. AT guns once spotted would have been sitting ducks and very hard to re-deploy.

[Seedorf81]

No I don't think so... I think he needed to stay mobile.. AT guns once spotted would have been sitting ducks and very hard to re-deploy.

Yes, but since you didn't have arty, wouldn't it be difficult to put them out of action if Gaj used enough infantry as a protective screen?

Or do you think your tanks would have had a reasonable chance to engage any (theoretical) AT-guns?

[sfhand]

I'm wondering how many others really had no idea the intricacies of that map. While Bil and GAJ did a nice job with the screenies and descriptions I found it difficult to visualize. What I wanted to do was zoom in and pan around the screenshots (I almost always try to do that when I watch CM videos too) so as to really understand how Bil could advance uncontested up the center and GAJ couldn't put his tanks in a long range overwatch position to move Bil's Sherman off the mountain GAJ was trying to get behind. Bil's initial map with key terrain features and avenues of approach was somewhat helpful in this regard but difficult to keep track of.