The Hybrid Tournament

[Sgt Schultz]

No, definitely NOT the environmentally friendly kind. This a hybrid of QB and scenario and tournament. An attempt to find the sweet spot of ahistorical yet immersive, somewhere between grog... and gamey b@sterd. A way to slap a choke-chain on the gamey, and at the same time allow the grogs to let their hair down without feeling somehow unclean.

This is an idea that I have been kicking around for a while, and has reached a point that it could use some community input with regards to rules.

The major stumbling block(for me at least, 'cause I wanna play) as I see it now is that this idea requires the services of a person or persons that will not participate but are familiar with the editor, to serve as Tournament Master(s). My idea, so I will gladly do it if no other generous party can be found. The time involved in setting these battles up is minimal if one has the experience in the editor.

The Broad Strokes... A test of your tactical abilities in creating and commanding a combined-arms battalion. Can you forge a force that can take on ANY similar-sized force of any nationality... and kick their @sses into the next time zone?

Meeting Engagements of 45 minutes, with up to a possible 15 minute overtime. Reinforcements at 10 and 20 minutes. Each round will take place on progressively more challenging terrain and weather conditions. Elite, No Intel, WEGO, PBEM.

1. Each player goes into the QB purchase screen and selects a "Huge"(don't be scared, there are rules) battle size force for a Meeting Engagement. This selection is recorded(i will show you) and sent to the TM. This is the player's force for the duration of the tournament. The force is fully reconstituted for each new round.

2. TM selects forces for both players in the scenario design editor and assigns destroy points/reinforcements, then places forces for both sides on map setup zones, and then saves it as a scenario.

3. TM repeats process on opposite sides of the map to eliminate possible "map bias".(greatly reduces whining potential and need for 'mirror maps')

4. Player pairs fight these battles simultaneously.

5. Two(or 4 if field is large enough) lowest scoring players are eliminated.

6. Lather, rinse, repeat until one is left standing.

7. Winner receives a copy of "The Panzers and The Battle of Normandy". A nice hardcover coffee table book about the efforts to deploy German armor to repel the Allies. Not too groggy, and plenty of excellent photographs. If they published a Panzer Pop-Up™ book, I would offer it to last place.

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The Details... Please take note of the words and phrases MUST, MAY, AT LEAST, NO MORE/GREATER THAN. They can make the difference between "What the hell are you thinking?" and "OK, I get it."

Purchase rules - 7200 points. What a number!

Soft Factors - No greater than Regular Experience/High Motivation/0 Leadership for global Formation settings. No more than ten Infantry/support and four vehicle/Armor units may be changed to a maximum value of Veteran/High/+1. All units will be set to Excellent equipment, Fit and Full ammo.

Infantry - Granularity without gameyness. Immersion without exacting obedience to historical TO&Es. For some it is a line, for others a grey area.

Must purchase one Btn. Must include Btn HQ and XO, and all relevant Co HQ and XO.

No more than ten units(squad/HQ/team/support weapon) may be changed within the formation in regards to Experience, Motivation and Leadership. Any and all modifiers may be changed within the selected units.

All additional independent team and/or vehicle selections must conform to Btn standards.

Must retain at least eight organic platoons and may have no more than ten platoons total. Independent pioneer/engineer platoons that are not connected to Btn C2 DO count towards the total.

No more than ten independent teams may be added in total, under the following rules...

May delete no more than one squad per platoon, per company.

May add no more than three independent teams to said platoon only.

May add no more than one independent team to no more than a single other platoon in each company. Organic selectable A/T assets(zook/PIAT/schrek) do NOT count towards these totals.

Btn and Co HQs may have no more than one independent team assigned directly(no supertoons). Example.. maximum usage would result in three Independent teams in one plt, one team in another and one with Co HQ for a maximum of five per company.

May delete any organic support weapons and their associated HQs/Formations(examples... support/ATG company, or paring down the number of schreks/zooks) Organic indirect fire assets are subject to Artillery Rules below.

May NOT use these HQs to rebuild custom formations/supertoons(ya' gamey b@sterd).

May delete any organic vehicles.

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Transport/Light Armor/Recon - The maps will be large, the distances long, the ammo needs great, and the reinforcements may need a lift to be of use and/or to reduce fatigue.

Must provide armored transport(HT/Bren) for at least two platoons. Must provide soft transport for one platoon. Any personel transport must be assigned directly to the relevant Plt HQ. (if the HQ dies, the vehicles suffer morale penalties, so assignment to Co/Btn HQ makes them too tough) Any and all ammunition may be taken at setup or at any time by any unit under the player's command.

Must select at least two Wheeled Recon or Light armor units.

May retain/add any number soft vehicles(trucks/jeeps/kubel).

Wheeled Recon(M8, Puma, Staghound, etc) may be assigned to Infantry Co and/or Btn HQs, as well as any armor HQs.

Tracked Recon/light armor(Lynx, Stuart, etc) must be assigned to Armor HQs.

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Armor - Even after tweaking the infantry, transport force, and artillery... there should still be a healthy amount left for armor. The main reason for Huge size is the ability to field an armor force of decent size without sacrificing infantry. Balancing capabilities and numbers is the order of the day.

General Rules - Must select a Formation and manage from that base. Must field at least five tanks of 75mm or better(57mm Churchill may count towards these due to its Kitty-killer potential). No Btn HQs allowed. First Plt HQ must have at least two subordinate units. Two platoons of three units each are required before the seventh may be a CO HQ. Any fully tracked vehicle may be used to count towards these totals(example... Stuart, Lynx). Any heavy wheeled recon(M8, Puma) may count towards these limits. All platoons must have at least three units total before making another platoon.

May add more than two subordinate units to any platoon without forcing new platoon formation. Example... 1 plt HQ tank with two M8 and two Stuart as heavy recon element.

Specific German Limitations/Big Cat Rules -

No more than one 88mm L/71. Either King Tiger or JagdPanther.

No more than one 88mm L/56 Tiger, unless an 88mm L/71 is not chosen, in which case another may be added.

No more than two 75mm L/70 Panther, unless an 88mm L/56 or L/71 is not chosen, in which case another may be added. Total of no more than four.

No other purchase restrictions.

Examples of minimum armor TOE -

7 units - 1 Co HQ, 1 plt HQ w/2 units, 2nd plt HQ w/2 units

8 units - 1 Co HQ w/1 unit, others same as above

9 units - 1 Co HQ, 1 plt HQ w/2 units. 2nd plt HQ w/2 units, 3rd plt HQ w/1unit

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Artillery - Soft Factors do not apply to Btn standards/totals. Any and all indirect assets may be adjusted in regards to Experience, Motivation and Leadership to Tournament maximums of Vet/High/+1(high/+1 only applies to on-map).

No more than eight total TUBES/barrels(not batteries) of 81mm. These can be selected either as on- or off-map assets.

Allied small-calibre on-map mortars(51mm/60mm) may be selected at the exchange rate of two tubes per every tube of 81mm taken from maximum allowed total, up to six small-calibre tubes. Organic or Independent is allowed, and will not count towards independent team limits.

No more than four tubes 105mm, 107mm/4.2 inch, 117mm, or 120mm. Mix-n-match is allowed if possible. Example... two-tube 105mm battery and two-tube 120mm battery.

No calibre larger than 120mm allowed.

No rockets.

No aircraft.

May preplan smoke missions only for any area on "friendly" side of objectives. No HE pre-planned barrages.

Artillery assets of greater than 81mm will be brought on as reinforcements at the ten minute mark.

Two tubes of 81mm must be brought on at the twenty minute reinforcement... either on- or off-map. Tip - Truck mounted organic on-map mortars have room for other folks to catch a ride.

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Fortifications - No more than two TRPs may be selected. No other Fortifications may used. TRPs may NOT be placed more than approx 100 meters beyond an objective as measured from friendly setup zone. Reasonable people obeying reasonable rules in a reasonable fashion. No need to pace off exact distances, just be close.

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Reinforcements - A major difference between a QB and a scenario. Adds depth while reducing initial commander load. Initial force selection should be done with an eye towards not driving the TM insane. Guidelines to follow...

All reinforcements will be placed in an approximately 50/30/20 ratio, or as close as possible. 50% of the total force, divided by type, will begin the battle on the map. 30% will arrive in ten minutes. 20% will arrive in twenty minutes. Reinforcements will be placed in reasonable positions for immediate movement in the general setup zone map area requested by the player.

Selection/Placement Guidelines/Rules -

The first 50% starting on-map will consist of...

Infantry -

Btn HQ/XO w/assigned team/transport(if selected), 1st Co HQ/XO w/same, and the first four selected platoons along with their transport. Any wheeled recon assigned to infantry is placed at this time. If 1st Co has less than four organic platoons, then the next ones in order of TOE selection will be placed. Independent platoons(engineers), and/or organic support/pioneer platoons may be placed here by request instead of breaking into 2nd Company. Transport must be placed for two fully mounted platoons. Either both armored, or one soft and one armored, so initial force selection must reflect this requirement(see above transport C2 rules) . 1st Company is loaded for recon, breaching if desired, and movement to contact. The ham in the sandwich.

Armor -

1st plt HQ and subordinate units.

All light Recon/Light Armor vehicles must be placed on map at start, and will count towards the armor 50%, so load 1st platoon with the Stuarts/M8s/Pumas/etc that you may wish to have, along with that first HQ tank. If placement of recon/light armor takes unit numerical totals over 50%(you would need six recon and five armor), then the HQ tank is brought in at 10 minutes. Ties always go toward earlier arrival.

Ten Minute Reinforcement - 30% consisting of follow-on troops, armor, and any larger caliber off-map assets. Support/Heavy Weapons Companies show their faces here if selected. The bulk of the heavier armor rolls in.

Infantry -

2nd Co HQ/XO w/team/transport(if selected), and all but two platoons. At least one platoon must have organic transport, so see above C2 rules. Support Company forces arrive, but the HQ does not until the total force is on-map. Any further Independent infantry platoons(engineer/pioneer) arrive.

Armor -

2nd plt and subordinate units.

Artillery - Any off-map assets larger than 81mm arrive now.

Twenty Minute Reinforcement - 20%, made up of the stragglers. The troops that had to walk the whole way, the tank(s) that broke down, and the last dregs of 81mm.

Infantry - 3rd Co HQ and entourage(if selected), and the last two platoons. Must be dismounted(they walked, therefore they are late). Support Co HQ and entourage(if selected) arrive now as well.

Armor - At least one tank must be kept back for this reinforcement. Otherwise it will be the lesser amount of what was left after initial deployment.

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Maps and Conditions -

One map will be used per round for all battles and participants. All maps for the first 4-5 rounds will be made available to the public as a map pack download at the repository once all tournament force selections have been turned in to the TM. Maps will have from two to four Occupy objectives, trending upward as tournament progresses. Terrain will be mixed, trending from light bocage/farmland/hamlet up to large village with surrounding woods and hamlets. Bluffs, swamps, creeks, broken terrain, etc will be placed to discourage "edge crawling", but there will be more than adequate room/concealing terrain for lateral/flanking maneuvers. No map will "require" the use of pioneers/engineers/breach teams to be successful, but all will benefit from having a few on hand. Examples... fields may not be hemmed in, but breaching onto that sunken road in a better spot might be handy. Blasting through Tall Walls near structures/compounds may also help. Mouseholing opportunites will become available in later rounds. Less bocage means more other reasons to blast.

Conditions will become more challenging as the tournament progresses. Day/Clear/Very Dry/Light Wind for round 1. The final round may progress to Dusk/Rain/Wet/Heavy Wind. Since these battles are "designed" in the scenario editor, more exact lighting conditions can/will be acheived by exact time stamps at battle start. Wind direction will always be perpendicular to axis of attack.

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Scoring - Commanders are held accountable for casualties. Throwing lives away means throwing chances for victory away. Being mindful of the tactical situation that may result AFTER your battle is complete may garner bonuses.

All terrain objectives will be "Occupy".

The total terrain objectives score available will always be 350 points.

Each map will have a single small(approx four tiles) "unknown to both" "Occupy" objective worth 50 points. These will be positions that could be used to either secure routes for follow-on forces... once the brass gets the lead out and sends them... or to recon/interdict enemy follow-on forces. It could be a farmhouse at an intersection, or a small wooded bluff that overlooks a possible reinforcement route. There will be at least two or three of these not-so-obvious positions on each map, but only one is scored. First round will have the most obvious, with them getting progressively more difficult to choose from. The war is larger than your battle Commander, so send a squad or a team and check those areas out before the battle ends.

All units will be assigned to a "Destroy" points group.

If it walks, it goes to group 1.

If it rolls on wheels or tracks, it goes in group 2.

Each group is scored at 300 points, for a total of 600. Human wave cannon fodder? Ouch. Using a squad when a two man scout team will do? Not advised. Using unsupported Panthers as Recon? hehehe. Fools rush in where experienced commanders fear to tread. The Lateral Mortar-Fear Boogie is a step all should learn.

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Alternates/Dropouts - Poopoo occurs. The TM will be provided with all passwords at force selection. Any planned yet unavoidable absence from play(business, family, etc) of greater than 7 days will result in an alternate chosen by the player involved being supplied with the password and force selection sheet by the TM until the original player returns. The latest file will be sent by the remaining player in the pairing, and play continues.

If an unannounced dropout of greater than 14 days occurs, then an alternate chosen from the pool will be provided with all above items and accrued points/tournament position. Play continues.

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Force selection recording - Not really all that hard. A few abbreviations and a standardized method of listing. Only units that are changed/added need more than a moment's checking, so the process goes quickly. All organic selectable teams are recorded in parenthesis. All adjustments are also in parenthesis. It only has to be done once by the player, and working from a list to transfer into the editor is not difficult.

Experience: V - Vet, R - Regular, G - Green, C - Conscript

Motivation: H - High, N - Normal, L- Low(can be a survival trait being that risk-adverse)

Leadership: +1, 0, -1, -2(why I have no idea but who am I to judge)

Example:

Inf - Panzergrenadier(Motorized) R/H/0 global

1 Btn HQ

XO

FO(V/H/0)

251/1

Puma

Puma

1 Co HQ (V/H/+1)

XO

Sniper

1 plt HQ (V/H/+1)

squad(shrek)

squad

Scout (V/H/0)

Breach (V/H/0)

A/T

251/1

251/1

251/1

2 plt HQ

squad

squad

squad(shrek)

Sniper

Truck

Truck

Kubel

3 plt HQ

squad(shrek)

squad

squad

etc etc etc

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It is up the flagpole. Now to see who salutes it.

Any and all constructive input is requested.

[John Kettler]

Sgt Schultz,

Unless you're planning on doing this way into next year, I must regretfully decline your invitation. Am having problems running a infantry platoon and barely got a draw with a company sized armored formation. Selecting and running a battalion is, for me, little different than the distance from here to the Moon!

What you propose is breathtaking in its scope and expanse, seeks to cover ground far in excess of both the Invitational Tourney and ROW (reinforced company level, I believe) and has rules with detail rivaling those of some of SPI's games, such as Mech War II.

I think this could be fabulous, but I suspect this is going to involve a lot of work. I've been in tournaments where the disputes and more drove the tourney director to quit, threatening to kill the tourney outright and stalling it for quite some time. You're talking about much the same, but on a considerably larger scale. OTOH, you're running paired scenarios, so won't need the Nabla System, but it'll now take twice as long. The prize seems cool, and your consolation prize cracked me up!

I wish you all the best with your splendid vision!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Sgt Schultz]

Hehe John, I am aware that this will have an extremely limited pool of potential players. The number of fictional battalion-level players here can most likely be counted on the fingers of two hands.

It can seem daunting to those who may be inexperienced at this level of play. That is why I did it. I have the time, the methods, the maps(almost done), and the desire to share something that may be outside of people's comfort zone.

The tournament has no set start date yet, as I have no participants. Ten(with an alternate) would be enough.

I can cut it down to a "large"(have rules for that, but piddlin' armor/vehicle amounts), and/or extend the arrival of reinforcements to decrease commander workload.

I have been in the tournament situations that you have described. Hence my TM idea with all pertinent information being in the hands of someone that can keep the ball rolling no matter what, and rules that are as tight and well-thought out as possible. These are under review and will remain so until tournament participants agree on final version.

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Note to all who read this -

If the tournament doesn't pan out I will still offer the hybrid service and the maps to the community. I am not one to take my ball and go home.

Make your own rules that the two of you can agree to.

Send me your rules, force picks and reinforcement instructions and map pick.

I will set it up as a scenario.

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I have been testing/training myself and the methods. I can set one up in about an hour if I have the information at hand. No briefings, no setup worries(player's problem), No AI plans... all I do is buy 'em, tweak 'em, plop 'em down and send 'em off to die. A battle smaller than huge would of course take less time to set up.

I don't have to agonize over briefings and "is this force balanced?". Fast-food scenario making. QBs to go!

It is past time to take QBs away from gamey, and into fictional-but-fun.

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Keep at it Captain John, you could be a full-bird Colonel someday if you wish.

[Bud Backer]

Sgt Schultz, I've been enjoying reading your posts. Your reply to my question about the engineer half track gave me a good laugh. I am in awe at how beautiful your HTH A Morning Run map is! I used to design maps for Steel Panthers for the SP Camo group so I can appreciate the level of detail and effort put into something that feels real, or is historically/geographically accurate.

I'm quite new to Combat Mission, but I love what I've seen so far with Cmbn:Cw. Your tourney sounds totally overwhelming to me! While I drool at the possible forces I could make, I dread the thought of actually trying to command them, let alone do so successfully.

In a few months, after I've actually played some more and get a handle on C2 etc, I'd consider trying my hand at something smaller than what you propose. More like a medium map as the larger end of the scale, with a reinforced company (2000 points tops?) for force size.

Whatever you do, I wish you well, sounds like you have a great concept and it should be a lot of fun for those fortunate enough to participate.

[pktaskess]

Love to but thats way more than I can chew right now. See my other post.

[A Canadian Cat]

Sounds awesome. Count me in! But 7200 points that's not huge. This, this is huge 20 000 point Epic Battle (Axis side).

Still I think this sounds like loads of fun. For you to participate all you really need is a 2IC to setup any battles you are involved in. Then you are good to go. I started reading your rules and at first glance my thought was - wow way to complex before morning coffee. I will read them in more detail later. What I got from a fast read through was that the spirit is to select a battalion tweak it a little but not too much and then go crazy with it.

If it will help I wrote a set of instructions for selecting and recording forces here: Force Selection Instructions pdf. Someone also mentioned that you can setup your force selection in a scenario file that can then be imported into other scenarios. This would make the umpire's job easier even if only one side can be imported for a given battle. I have not tired it yet but I believe it is the mechanism for getting a core force in a campaign into each following battle. That way each participant would be responsible for creating their own core force file that the umpires can use to setup the battles. That would also be a nice way for people to look at each player's force after the tournament was over.

So, bottom line count me in! And if you agree that all you need to participate is someone to setup any battle you are in the I volunteer to do that for you. I don't want to get into too much admin work but I will happily do enough to let you play too. Actually I guess at some point you and I would face off so you would need one other person to assist as well.

[WinOrLose]

Sounds good but if you are quick the Few Good Men are signing up players for an almost identical system set up around Operation Cobra.

[Sublime]

me! me! pick me!

[Sgt Schultz]

Bud, Thanks for the props. I am pretty happy with the way that one turned out.

Ian, I am enjoying reading your DAR. Awesome idea, and if the tourney idea doesn't take off I am going to play a 20K soon. The size of the 7200 pointers in QBs is called "Huge" in the setup screen before purchase. I consider it "Large", but I didn't write the descriptions.

Sublime, I figured you for a player before I posted the rules bro. I pity your first opponent, but if/when the Destroy points humble the horde, it may get less horrifying for the rest. But I somehow doubt it Commissar.

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[Sublime]

ha you've sharpened my QB picking skills...

[RT North Dakota]

I can see the bones of a really good idea here but it has been made WAY TOO COMPLICATED. The basics are sound, but really are we not just talking about designing and testing the best all round 7,200 point Equipment set?

Essentially the exam question is that "My 7,200 points and tactical skill to employ it" will beat yours. Make this an encounter battle and I see some merit.

You play Allied v Allied or German v German depending on who picks what, and I wouldn't restrict the German armour in any way. Tigers and Panthers die like anything else.

Just my opinion.

[Sublime]

I disagree. The German armor cap is very important on a battle where both sides get equal points (if its Allied vs Axis) Note he specified based on gun - 88 L/71 is super lethal and is on Jagdpanthers and KTs. Only one is quite appropriate. And so on, yes they die like everything else, but not as easily.

[A Canadian Cat]

Ian, I am enjoying reading your DAR. Awesome idea, and if the tourney idea doesn't take off I am going to play a 20K soon. The size of the 7200 pointers in QBs is called "Huge" in the setup screen before purchase. I consider it "Large", but I didn't write the descriptions.

I am glad you are enjoying the DAR. I was just joshing - this 20K battle is taking a really long time to play out. My PBEM partner and I usually have two games on the go at any given time and we have started and finished another one since the 20K battle started. I think 7200 points should make a reasonable size battle that will not take years to complete.

[Sgt Schultz]

RT, thanks for the input, and you are correct that players would be facing German v German and Allied v Allied. Players get one force for the entire tournament, and the pairs are drawn at random for each round.

The limitations and rules are an attempt to balance player choice against TM workload, as well as trying to maintain a modicum of force parity and "realism".

Otherwise one could buy an FO, 10-20 TRPs, a truckload of artillery and a few dozen each of sniper, LMG, and zook teams.... no thank you. Not the paradigm I am attempting to embrace. Been there, done that. Wonky C2 chains and supertoons etc are one of my specialties, and I feel that it would make for a lousy tournament.

It boils down to 10 teams and 10 changes for 8-10 platoons, along with a decent and varied support and vehicle set, that will most likely have to deal with all three different nationalities at some point in the tourney. If tournaments do not have a comprehensive set of rules, then someone will find a loophole to dive through, and that usually causes bad feelings.

This is all open for debate and input of course.

The Big Cat Rules are up for debate, but I am fairly confident that I have found the sweet spot. The point of the exercise is making all the different elements work together, not dog-piling King Tigers onto the map. These are not bocage tight maps. The long 75s and 88s, coupled with superior optics, can make a telling difference in this terrain.

Without limits, the Allied-picking players would bring almost exclusively Achilles/M10/Firefly to deal with the Big Cat hordes. This way, everyone knows they have room to bring some specialty units or maybe an extra short platoon of less expensive armor.

I am quite aware of how daunting it looks as that wall of text, but once one starts buying, it falls into place as a natural and logical way to deploy a combined-arms heavy Battalion.

Not the only way, or maybe even the best way, but it makes life for the TM easier.

--

[Sublime]

*yawn* turns plz schultzie...

[RT North Dakota]

I disagree. The German armor cap is very important on a battle where both sides get equal points (if its Allied vs Axis) Note he specified based on gun - 88 L/71 is super lethal and is on Jagdpanthers and KTs. Only one is quite appropriate. And so on, yes they die like everything else, but not as easily.

I know he specified a gun - that's a big so what where I come from. I didn't realise that success in the game was all about having the supposed best tank gun. Does not terrain and tactics play a significant part?

The big guns come at a cost in points. I'm very happy to just deal with it and force folks to think in terms of combined arms tactics.

Maybe have two competitions. One with 88's and one without.

[Sublime]

No. Its not about the best tank gun, but it sure as $hit helps. Especially when said gun will penetrate any and all allied tanks from any aspect, whilst the tank mounting said gun can only be penetrated from certain angles from very specific allied tanks. If there arent restrictions then players will only take certain tanks to be sure of winning the tournament. Then it becomes everyones favorite cat vs the poor SOB who drew the short straw and has to take Allies with fireflies that blow up if a mouse farts in china. I also remind you the 88 L/71 isnt the Tiger I's 88, which is bad enough, its a high velocity 88. Like the difference between a Shermans 75 and a Panthers high velocity 75. BIIG diff. Terrain and tactics will play a huge part, though as the TM noted above the Germans would have a huge advantage if some cap wasnt placed on the armor. And the cap is a large part of why terrain and tactics will matter, because they certainly wont with players cherry picking big cat only forces, etc.

I'd move for it to be more complex in fact, with different experience levels being mandated for the troops.

But if the whole thing's really such a big so what to you, why even bother commenting? This is a user driven tournament idea, no one is being obliged to join if they dont like the rules.

[The Steppenwulf]

How about writing a script that incorporates all of the complex provisions, randomizes a 7200 point force within the given parameters and the players then simply get whatever combined force the number cruncher spews out the other side.

Sure, such a method removes the skill in selecting one's own force - the best force picker, but on the other hand the advantages are less gamey and more realistic - real commanders don't get to select an ideal army from a menu. Secondly, it would be more demanding - making the best of the hand you got dealt - with added unpredictablity.

Thirdly, the selection parameters could be as deep as you like - even deeper than those written in the OP - since the players don't have to learn them or even bother with them.

Finally each player could get a new randomized force for each and every battle. That means each new game is a wholly different challenge and players cannot hope to learn about an opponent's particular composition from the reports of previous combatants - you know the bitter and defeated !!

I could get a basic working script in python (no frills) running in a respectably short time - the hardest work is actually wrapping one's head around the rules as envisaged in the OP - essential for the programmer before even starting to write. But it's not rocket science it's only a question of sufficient demand.

[fry30]

i think that misses the point entirely. it seems like this hybrid tournament is based around the force selection at the beginning.

[Sgt Schultz]

Thank you for the kind offer Steppenwulf, but fry is correct in his statement that the point IS to hand-pick a force from a reasonable force pool.

No supertoons, No elite fanatic +2 units, no wads of uber-armor that makes everyone want to play as Germans... just an almost-real force that lies between gamey and historical.

There are those in the community that create some of the finest historical battles and campaigns imaginable.

There are those that prefer the uber-gamey freedom that QBs offer.

I am the bridge. I like what could have been, but wasn't.

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I am happy that there is discussion and debate. I half-expected this idea to lie on the ground and fall to page two almost immediately. As I stated earlier; even if the tournament does not go forward, or does so in a reduced form... the maps and hybrid service will be made available to all who wish to try it on for size.

Sometimes one wishes to fight neither The Alamo or a complete fantasy battle.

[RT North Dakota]

But if the whole thing's really such a big so what to you, why even bother commenting? This is a user driven tournament idea, no one is being obliged to join if they dont like the rules.

Why bother commenting? Because comments were asked for - by virtue of the post. My opinion was is that the restrictions make no sense because they artificially constrain the player in the design of his force structure and how he employs it.

If some guy picks a Tiger II heavy force and then finds himself in a forest and bocage, then he'll probably come to understand something he didn't understand before.

Just an opinion.

[Sublime]

And my opinion has no more value or weight than yours. Still, a KT in bocage or not is still not something to be taken lightly. At all. Same with a Jagdpanther. Close terrain or no, they shrug off hits from most Shermans and Allied tanks even at point blank range and kill in one shot with their return fire. To be honest anyways, since the tourney is about force composition I'd rather the rules stipulate no 'super cats' and limit it to Tiger I's and Panthers.

[Vanir Ausf B]

In CMBN the Porsche turret on the KT can be penetrated by US 76mm and the 88L71 is overkill against anything presently in the game. My view is that this makes the KT only marginally more effective than the Panther. From a pure cost/benefit standpoint there is no reason to ever buy anything other than Jadgpanthers unless for some reason you feel the need for a turret, in which case the Panther is best.

However, if bad weather and poor ground conditions are a possibility there is a small complicating factor. My testing has shown that the Panther -- and probably the Jadgpanther -- is nearly twice as likely to bog and immobilize as a Tiger I. KT is even worse.

[Sublime]

Can be penetrated is a lot different than likely to be at all. In my experience US 76s hardly ever penetrate Tigers or even Panthers from the front, and you.re playing a dangerous game that you.re very likely to lose if you try it. Also, since we're playing a computer game a lot of the weak points that real gunners would have aimed at only are hit by chance as the AI shoots for center mass. Which means if you're shooting from the front than you'll keep pinging away on the toughest armor, and usually if the targetted kitty survives the first shot or two it'll align it's hull so as to be even more secure. US 76's are nowhere near as effective against armor as say the 17lber, and I'd daresay comparable to the Brit 6 lber on the Churchill MK IV (in my game experiences.) And in fact, I'd say I've actually killed more Tigers frontally with the 6 lber because the APDS rounds it gets. Historically also, the Americans didnt always have 76s, or choose to leave behind the 75s and the Brits didnt always get Fireflies. However I doubt you'll find many people choosing anything less than Fireflies in a QB in a tournament like this when the rules make specifications FOR heavy German armor. You'd be a fool to not expect your opponent to pick it to win.

Even with the Brit Fireflies, which stand a great chance of penetrating theres a problem in that it's AP shot so the after armor effects suck. In a game against the OP right now I ambushed a KT advancing with 3 Panthers with a firefly. Completely got the drop on the tanks. First flank shot? Richochet. Second? Armor spalling. Third and Fourth? Lower side turret, upper left hull penetrations. the KT pops smoke. I even sent a smart assed email about buying KTs. Guess what? The KT's still in action. So far it's fired one round, and that one round brewed up a Churchill of mine.

We can argue figures and opinions all day, but I think it'd be pretty accurate to say that KT's and Jagdpanthers are so tough from the front, with such a lethal cannon, that if the player owning them is halfway decent their prescence alone can completely alter a battle. Because of that I completely agree on the choice to limit them to one, and I still think there should be none. Historical accuracy is on my side here too, there were waaay more Tiger I's and Panthers IRL, and even more Pz IV's.

[A Canadian Cat]

Can be penetrated is a lot different than likely to be at all. In my experience US 76s hardly ever penetrate Tigers or even Panthers from the front, and you.re playing a dangerous game that you.re very likely to lose if you try it.

Indeed. In Huzzar I had a long duel between a 76 Sherman and a Panther. The only reason I was able to keep my 76 Sherman alive long enough to have that duel was that it was higher and behind high bocage. I backed it away out of fire and then back again a minute or two later. Round after found bounced off the front of the Panther and round after round was absorbed by the bocage. In the end it was a flanking 75 Sherman that finally ended the kitty.

Even with the Brit Fireflies, which stand a great chance of penetrating theres a problem in that it's AP shot so the after armor effects suck. In a game against the OP right now I ambushed a KT advancing with 3 Panthers with a firefly. Completely got the drop on the tanks. First flank shot? Richochet. Second? Armor spalling. Third and Fourth? Lower side turret, upper left hull penetrations. the KT pops smoke. I even sent a smart assed email about buying KTs. Guess what? The KT's still in action. So far it's fired one round, and that one round brewed up a Churchill of mine.

We can argue figures and opinions all day, but I think it'd be pretty accurate to say that KT's and Jagdpanthers are so tough from the front, with such a lethal cannon, that if the player owning them is halfway decent their prescence alone can completely alter a battle. Because of that I completely agree on the choice to limit them to one, and I still think there should be none. Historical accuracy is on my side too, there were waaay more Tiger I's and Panthers IRL, and even more Pz IV's.

I 100% agree about the Royal Tigers. I played a very large battle (12 000) points and it turned out to be Royal Tigers and Panthers vs Churchills and Achilles. My Royal Tigers mopped the floor with my opponent. I had something like 12 Royal Tigers and they killed all opposition. I lost one tank the whole game. I did not really enjoy that game much frankly. Just diving around with impunity gets boring pretty quickly. The shells from the Chuchills (75s and 95s) bounced off the front, the turret and the sides.