BDW Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 I'm playing multiple CMFI games as germans. In all of these games, my german armor seems to be having an extremely difficult time spotting those camo shermans. the german armor often will be stationary, unbuttoned, with vehicle covered arc. Next thing I know i'm taking hits from a sherman inside the covered arc that my infantry can see, but the tank cannot see. My tanks just sit there and get killed, apparently blind to these shermans. These aren't green crews either, these are vet/crack/elite. This also happened with an elite tiger; it was taking hits from two shermans, but could see neither of them (it escaped). Just happened with a panzer (killed) and in another game with a stug (killed) Is anyone else experiencing this? i hat eto say the word "bug" but it really is starting to feel like it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Happen to have any saves to look at? There are a number of possibilities as to why, but I don't know that any of those are applicable for you. Be more than happy to look at anything you have and either suggest some answers or throw in my own view that soemthing could be borked. Personally I haven't seen it, but I haven't had that many armor engagements yet, mostly infantry combat. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatmasta Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Yep, it seems to be quite hard for the germans to spot allied tanks! Maybe the commanders are again sitting 90 degree angle to their sights as they did in early builds of the BN 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDW Posted October 2, 2012 Author Share Posted October 2, 2012 sburke, i do have a saved game that is a good example I think. where do I send it? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 thanks BDW, just PM'd you with my email. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDW Posted October 2, 2012 Author Share Posted October 2, 2012 OK thanks sburke, file is on the way 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 German tank commanders complained about gunner not having seperate wide field of view optics for general observation like the Allies did. All they had was their magnified gun sight. Tiger I eventually got a roof-mounted periscope for the loader to help in spotting but early Tiger I in CMFI lacks it. Sherman has a swivel roof periscope for loader and a seperate wide field of view perscope for gunner so there were literally more eyes spotting. Its interesting that the US was envious of German high magification gunner's optics while the German were envious of the greater US situational awareness. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDW Posted October 2, 2012 Author Share Posted October 2, 2012 i understand about the restricted field of view for the gunner; but I don't understand why a commander unbuttoned with binocs is not able to spot shermans taking shots at him 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDW Posted October 2, 2012 Author Share Posted October 2, 2012 sburke got your email. Thanks! To be clear: not just the Pz. Also having this happens with the Stug and with the Tiger. The Tiger was perhaps the most frustrating. The Tiger was Elite, Fanatic, +2 leadership, stationary, unbuttoned, and taking hit after hit from two shermans (infantry near the tiger spotted the sherms before the shooting started). The tiger did not spot them at all, and I actually had to retreat the tiger on the next turn, to prevent damage to gun/optics/etc. how does an elite tiger not spot those shermans for over a minute? Crazy, right? Perhaps the Stugs are the worst offenders, however. I played one game and lost 5 Stugs to this behavior – they never spotted the shermans and did not even return fire, just taking hits blind. The most recent was another great example: Stug was on a hill, perfect position, clear LOS to fire down on the approaching Sherman, stationary, covered armor arc, I knew exactly where the Sherman was going to be. Infantry had eyes on the Sherman. Sherman trundles right into the covered arc; Stug can’t even see it. Sherm starts firing at the stug, stug doesn’t return fire, sits there blind. Sherman kills Stug. I’m actually losing most of my CMFI games as germans due to this behavior. It’s nuts - Or maybe I’m extremely unlucky? I’ve not run a “test” yet, but I’m experiencing this in ALL of my games as germans. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 I wonder if anyone is experiencing the opposite, i.e. US tanks not seeing German tanks. Or, as BDW fears, is there a pro-US bias not justified by history at work here. Conversely, do gamers have a pro-German bias such that they may be shocked and disappointed at the actual performance of their supposedly all-conquering Panzers? I don't have the answer to that, which is why I ask. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stikkypixie Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 I wonder if anyone is experiencing the opposite, i.e. US tanks not seeing German tanks. Or, as BDW fears, is there a pro-US bias not justified by history at work here. Conversely, do gamers have a pro-German bias such that they may be shocked and disappointed at the actual performance of their supposedly all-conquering Panzers? I don't have the answer to that, which is why I ask. Michael I don't really think there is a bias: http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=106403 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 I don't really think there is a bias: http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=106403 Right. It was with those kinds of threads in mind that I posted my question. We gamers are an impressionable lot. We flip a coin ten times and if it comes up heads each time we are apt to cry foul. Certainly the issue is worth looking into, but it may just be up to a string of bad luck. Such things happen. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDW Posted October 2, 2012 Author Share Posted October 2, 2012 Good question, Michael. I've been playing CM since the first game back in 2000 or whenever it was. I skipped the modern CMSF series. I'm not a grog by any respects and only know about WWII hardware from CM and reading the posts from the grogs here. Anyhow, I've really got no preconcevied notions about german armor or whatnot. I just like me a good tank battle! That said, in all the past 12 year playing CM, I've never experienced such consistent spotting issues. I've been playing CMFI a lot! So, i've got a pretty good sampling of this issue, from a statistical standpoint. It's gotten to the point that it is starting to not "feel" right to me. I'll let you experts and grogs validate it as bug or not. One theory is that I've been hexed or cursed! :-) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stikkypixie Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Good question, Michael. I've been playing CM since the first game back in 2000 or whenever it was. I skipped the modern CMSF series. I'm not a grog by any respects and only know about WWII hardware from CM and reading the posts from the grogs here. Anyhow, I've really got no preconcevied notions about german armor or whatnot. I just like me a good tank battle! That said, in all the past 12 year playing CM, I've never experienced such consistent spotting issues. I've been playing CMFI a lot! So, i've got a pretty good sampling of this issue, from a statistical standpoint. It's gotten to the point that it is starting to not "feel" right to me. I'll let you experts and grogs validate it as bug or not. One theory is that I've been hexed or cursed! :-) My hypothesis is that with relative spotting you are more likely to see spotting outliers. In the old CM games, the borg spotting tend to average out spotting oddities. An individual tank in CMBB might fail to spot an enemy, but you would not notice. In the new CM games, units spot more independently from its allies which I think results in more outliers. The fact that a TC does not spot a tank firing at it does not seem that odd to me, if he happen to look the other way he won't be able to spot it. Any way my two cents. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 My hypothesis is that with relative spotting you are more likely to see spotting outliers. In the old CM games, the borg spotting tend to average out spotting oddities. An individual tank in CMBB might fail to spot an enemy, but you would not notice. In the new CM games, units spot more independently from its allies which I think results in more outliers. The fact that a TC does not spot a tank firing at it does not seem that odd to me, if he happen to look the other way he won't be able to spot it. Any way my two cents. That would be a nice theory in isolation. But fact is that the whole CMx2 line has problems with infantry not spotting AFVs right next to them, too. Tanks on the other hand seem to often get wedged in the code to end up spotting sharpshooters and guns not moved after their defensive setup easier than tanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stikkypixie Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 That would be a nice theory in isolation. But fact is that the whole CMx2 line has problems with infantry not spotting AFVs right next to them, too. Tanks on the other hand seem to often get wedged in the code to end up spotting sharpshooters and guns not moved after their defensive setup easier than tanks. In my experience situations where infantry fail to spot tanks *right next to them* either involve smoke or vegetation. In any case it's not where near common as you seem to paint it. [Edit] Hmm, harsher tone that I imagined. Any case haven't seen much examples that didn't have a good explanation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDW Posted October 2, 2012 Author Share Posted October 2, 2012 I'm also kind of wondering if the camo on the Shermans has something to do with it. I mean, I can't even spot the shermans on the computer screen sometimes! So maybe they are modeled to be very hard to spot? I dunno. All I know is that Shermans are RULING on all of my games. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slysniper Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 TESTING IS THE ANSWER, I did some testing for tanks in motion vs stationary tanks already in the game. but it should not be hard to come up with a spotting test to see if things are fair. Nothing has shown up to be funny to me other than the normal issue of If its your tank that does not spot, the game must be crap. But I have found, the other guy gets the same issue also. imagine that. But running some test could quickly prove if its just a issue of every time his tank does not spot first - he notices it as not being right. Because about 50% of the time it will not spot first, imagine that. Then when hit, they sometimes have a hard time picking up the target because of the dust around them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Well back to the OP BDW I had a chance to look at it during lunch (damn I love working from home) There isn't much for me to go on as the action happens right from the start. The preceding minute if you have that turn may actually give more info, however there are a couple relevant points though that may influence this. You have 2 PzIIIN and a Pz IV. The start of the turn the PzIV has already been hit with something (it is showing top hit). If I had to guess I'd suspect it was MG fire at the exposed TC from a Sherman that is about to kill it. The Sherman that has spotted the Pz IV is the BN CO. I honestly don't know how much impact that has, but I suspect some. It is a pretty narrow window the two are facing off over so visibility wasn't great to begin with, being suppressed probably made it nigh impossible. Anyway the point of this is your Pz IV is already peaking it's suppression indicator right at the start of the turn and the Sherman BN CO already has a bead on it. You were dead meat unfortunately. All your crews were regular, I have no idea what experience levels the Sherman had though if this is the default scenario the BN CO crew should be regular. As to the Pz IIINs. Unfortunately one is carrying HE only. The second has HEAT rounds. As the 2nd Med Sherman comes barreling down your HE panzer fires a round to no effect. Your HEAT Pz then fires and gets a penetrating hit, but the Sherman pops smoke and appears functional. This is where I think your curse comes in to effect. The Sherman kills the HEAT Pz right away. If it had killed the HE Pz you might have had a chance, but that Pz III HE just isn't doing anything to the front aspect of the Sherman. I think you landed 3 hits during the turn and I expect that Pz III crew is either hoping to hell the commander is gonna pop smoke and reverse or are saying their final prayers. This particular save doesn't give much data either way as the action is already begun. Everyone who is going to spot has already done so, anyone who hasn't is about to die. If you have any others you can share I'd be happy to look. One thing I have learned from beta testing is I feel totally inadequate to the task. There is always far more I'd like to look at than I have time. Having access to examples of behavior you think is questionable really helps to focus on items that may or may not be out of whack that I just normally wouldn't even think to look at. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darknight (DC) Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 As pointed out in the link thread above (which I posted last month), I have experienced the exact polar opposite of the OP's problem....my Shermans can't spot for S#!* and my opponent's StuGs and PzIVs have murdered me due to spotting me first, shooting at me first and (almost) always hitting me and knocking my Shermans out on the first hit. I'm in the middle of a game right now where I've probably lost half a company of Shermans to slow or non-existent spotting of German armour....though infantry, and even snipers, are spotted regularly. I had originally posted because I was looking for tips to help improve my play wrt armour, as I figured it must be something I'm missing. What I've discovered since, is that the Shermans seem to be very good at acquiring targets while moving at speed, and even firing/hitting has been pretty effective while moving...StuGs seem to be much better at stalking/ambushing (maybe due to the lower profile?). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simast Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Just wanted to point it out, that according to BF there is no bug in spotting. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDW Posted October 2, 2012 Author Share Posted October 2, 2012 ok no bug in spotting means I'm going with the "i've been cursed" theory! LOL That said, on my next few QB's I'm going with US so I can use the Shermans and see if I can break the curse... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 As pointed out in the link thread above (which I posted last month), I have experienced the exact polar opposite of the OP's problem....my Shermans can't spot for S#!* and my opponent's StuGs and PzIVs have murdered me due to spotting me first, shooting at me first and (almost) always hitting me and knocking my Shermans out on the first hit. DC, you need to go HTH against BDW. I have this vision of both of you driving tanks around that can't see one another LOL. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDW Posted October 2, 2012 Author Share Posted October 2, 2012 DC, you need to go HTH against BDW. I have this vision of both of you driving tanks around that can't see one another LOL. I agree! DC let's do an armor only QB, you US me German, and see what happens...? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 ok no bug in spotting means I'm going with the "i've been cursed" theory! LOL That said, on my next few QB's I'm going with US so I can use the Shermans and see if I can break the curse... Spotting not having issues doesn't mean units spotting can't have issues. The classic example is the one BF themselves reported where a crewman in the Tiger was sitting 90 degrees to the correct facing. I am still up for taking a look at any other saves you have or come across. Besides I love watching the replays. That doesn't mean you can't also be cursed at the same time. You'd have heard a little swearing in my household last night as my Pz IV had two free shots at one of vKleist's Shermans, however he had crept up to a hedgerow and my rounds kept detonating on it. His round however had no such problem considering I was in the open - 1 dead Pz IV.... sigh. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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