Commissar Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 I've always kind of wondered, but what was the advantage or reason for the overlapping road wheels on the Panther and Tiger? Was it to support a wider track? Why not simply make an oversized wheel like on the T-34? Did the design make maintenance/repair more difficult? I can't recall ever reading a reason for it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 One reason for the big wheels was so they could act as an extra layer of armour on the thin flanks of the vehicle. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 The reason for the interleaved suspension for the Germans was it had several advantages over the previous design. Ie, the wheels moved little, while crossing rough terrain, while maintaining drive power when going over ground obstacles, and ground pressure was kept basicly evenly dispersed between the wheels which wasnt possible with the prior suspensions on the PzKpfw III/IV. Also the wear and tear on the rubber wheel coating was kept to acceptale limits. Regard, John Waters 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkelried Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 The main reason to use interleaving wheels was to increase the number of wheels and to keep the individual wheels still reasonably large (to keep resistance low). An increased number of wheels gives more even load distribution on the wheels and therefore better stability and behaviour cross-country. So the tiger was able to distribute the load of 57 tons over eight wheels/torsion bars on each side - so each wheel had to carry (very simplisticly said!!) 3.6 tons. The downside of this approach was that it was not so easy to maintain (image the number of wheels you have to dismount when a inner wheel has a problem) and that in winter mud or snow which got stuck between the wheels could freeze and block the wheels. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 It means that pressure on the track is much more even. With fewer wheels you have sharp "hills" and then the "ground falls into a hole" where no wheel is. This could have meant a pretty sizable advantage in some ground conditions. Also, these vehicle use torsion bar suspension. Having more axles means that you have more independent spring-like things distributing the load. Together with stopping the use of the silly conventional springs all three things combined could have made a huge difference in off-road performance. Unfortunately the drivetrain and the engines available at the time made this not matter much. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 It means that pressure on the track is much more even. With fewer wheels you have sharp "hills" and then the "ground falls into a hole" where no wheel is. This could have meant a pretty sizable advantage in some ground conditions. Yup. The British 'solved' this same problem in a quite different way on the Churchill by having a very large number of very small wheels. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slysniper Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 All these answers are good. But the real reason was that Fritz was working on the design table, thinking, How can I make a "Bad Ass" looking Tank. This is the true reason it was so. It just so happened that by doing it, it help solve all the issues he was trying to resolve with fixing all the load issues on his track system. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Yes, the Tiger was the result of a graphics design competition in some obscure Volkswagen office... "WooHoo... willya look at dose cool overlapping wheels! This will sell millions!" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkelried Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Yes, the Tiger was the result of a graphics design competition in some obscure Volkswagen office... "WooHoo... willya look at dose cool overlapping wheels! This will sell millions!" Hmmm. was actually Henschel & Sohn who designed the Tiger I - so they probably wanted to something sleaker as this yes the color scheme was not adapted since the Heereswaffenamt couldn't agree on the RAL number for the lilac. But the steam locomotive already showed the first "Schürzen" which impressed the procurement people deeply. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 ...the steam locomotive... Are you sure that is a steam locomotive? It looks more like a diesel to me. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 The competition for the Panther contract offered leaf spring suspension instead of tortion bar. Each design type has its own benefits and drawbacks. Russian/Brit Christie suspension allowed a lot of verticle wheel movement for great cross country performance but the pistons took up a lot of internal room. Torsion bar suspension allowed for a narrower hull (or wider interior) with the downside of the hull floor being taken up by swing arms, raising the overall height. Exterior spring suspension like Sherman and PzIV allowed for bolt-on suspension units without a need to pierce the hull, but could rattle your fillings loose travelling cross country. Sherman's really a bad example. It's a big as a house due to it being designed around a radial aircraft engine. The experimental T23 showed what you could come up with arranging the same standard components logically. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Are you sure that is a steam locomotive? It looks more like a diesel to me. Michael No, that's a streamlined steam locomotive. http://www.dbtrains.com/en/locomotives/epochII/BR61 In a couple of decades the Boston area trains will catch up to that level of technology... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkelried Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Are you sure that is a steam locomotive? It looks more like a diesel to me. Michael The train has even a name Henschel-Wegmann Train. The locomotive is a DRG Class 61. Top speed 170 km/h :eek: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Okay, you convinced me. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slysniper Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 No, not Train grogs toooooo 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 No, not Train grogs toooooo The proper term is "ferrosexuals". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 I seem to recall some of the larger halftrack prime movers had interleaved wheels as well. And tons of grease fittings. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 The proper term is "ferrosexuals". not that there's anything wrong with that 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardFudnavis Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 The Panther tank was seen as a necessary component of the upcoming Operation Zitadelle, and the attack was delayed several times because of their mechanical problems, with the eventual start date of the battle only six days after the last Panthers had been delivered to the front. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 The Germans also used staggered torsion bars (to allow for full length bars across the hull width). On one side the arms were trailing from the bars to the wheels, on the other, they advanced to wheels. This alleviated, but did not eliminate, an asymmetry of location between left and right road wheel placement. The tracks thus faced asymmetric loads, especially when turning in one direction or another. A very complex arrangement. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chek Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 The proper term is "ferrosexuals". Some of my best friends are ferrosexuals -nods in an understanding manner- 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 The competition for the Panther contract offered leaf spring suspension instead of tortion bar. Each design type has its own benefits and drawbacks. Russian/Brit Christie suspension allowed a lot of verticle wheel movement for great cross country performance but the pistons took up a lot of internal room. Torsion bar suspension allowed for a narrower hull (or wider interior) with the downside of the hull floor being taken up by swing arms, raising the overall height. Exterior spring suspension like Sherman and PzIV allowed for bolt-on suspension units without a need to pierce the hull, but could rattle your fillings loose travelling cross country. Sherman's really a bad example. It's a big as a house due to it being designed around a radial aircraft engine. The experimental T23 showed what you could come up with arranging the same standard components logically. Speilburger's book on the Panther had the speed cross country/oscillation tests run by the Heer and Wa pruf 6 during the war. Panther MAN was the best (low porpoise) Tiger was second, Sherman was better than the PIV, PIV experimental chassis was worse than the leaf springs. DB panther and the T34 had the most oscillation/porpoise. This test was one of the reasons the DB Panther was rejected by wa pruf 6 and then began lobbying Hitler to select the torsion bar design. DB wrote formal letters arguing their suspension was perfectly serviceable and a "proven" layout. Reading between the lines wa pruf 6 run by engineer officers tended to like highly advanced designs and were a bit ticked off only MAN did as were told and based their design on interleaved torsion bars. The reason cited for engineering a chassis that minimised "porpoising" was to provide a stable gun platform. This might have been a diminishing returns decision though in light of poor quality metals being used in the final drives rendering mobility irrelevant when the transmission of PIV/Hetzers/Panthers tended to have a half life of 200km in 44/45. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 Basta!!! how have you been. PM me if you wanna talk. Good to see your still around. Regards, John Waters 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 The Germans also used staggered torsion bars (to allow for full length bars across the hull width). On one side the arms were trailing from the bars to the wheels, on the other, they advanced to wheels. This alleviated, but did not eliminate, an asymmetry of location between left and right road wheel placement. The tracks thus faced asymmetric loads, especially when turning in one direction or another. A very complex arrangement. It appears the Germans have a habit of continuing the trend even to the present day. A prime example is the technical marvel of Volkswagen engineering in designing the 1.4 Litre Turbocharged AND Supercharged engine that is fitted to may VW Golfs. They're a brilliant design in theory but the trouble is, they keep having reliability issues. I guess with so many complications in the engineering there are simply too many things that can go wrong. There's something to be said for the KISS principal, a philosophy I don't see any German manufacturer ever adopting! Regards KR 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 I love your movies, John/PzKpfw 1. "Hairspray" was brilliant. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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