8outof8 Video Commentary Review

[Destraex1]

I will write some more later.... I also think combat mission is the best to be had for combined arms simulation. But as said above I would also like some "bog standard defacto industry standard" interface features added. I too cannot for the life of me understand how some of you call the camera controls comparable to total war or other game camera controls.

I am guessing you are either very very used to the keyboard controls and shortcut keys or have almost no memory of what other games offer when it comes to camera controls.

MikeyD I would say we are not really playing the same game at all, the camera makes me feel like I am driving a car with one front wheel flat, it pulls to one side and requires a lot of correction.

Youtube has something called "responses". In that people do their own video responses to a video and youtube links the videos together.

I would love to see one of you debunk all of the reviewers points in a response video.

[Battlefront.com]

I suppose there are other examples in the industry but, off the top of my head, can't think of any. Kind of fascinating, actually. A back-handed tribute?

For the most part the people spitting bile at us (not constructive criticism, just dripping hate) are still buying CM games and Modules. So yeah, it's either a back-handed tribute or a sign of deep psychological problems. Or both

But surely you are not saying your camera controls for example are one of the best in the market? The guy made good points, like why in the world is there no "music off" or master volume controls, all that I agree with, but also can live with because I like the product otherwise.

Oh, for SURE there were some good points made. Many of which I whole heartedly agree with. Your assumption that we think the game is fine, or won't change things just because someone has asked for a change, is demonstrably incorrect. It just gets down to this...

Why must "serious games" be so damn serious that everything with a hint of "user-friendly" is a horrific act of blasphemy and must be avoided at all costs?

Well, this is just nonsense. Do you think we purposefully make games difficult to play? We are a for profit company... why on Earth would we do that?

First problem you are ignoring is that other games tend to have slicker interfaces because there is less game to interface with. Pong has a REALLY slick interface. Twist clockwise to make your paddle go down, twist counter clockwise to make it go up. Twist faster to increase the speed. But how much game is there? Not much.

Secondly, the fact is everything in a game takes time to develop. UI is one of those things which is always less than what users want it to be. It's a black hole, of sorts. Because we have limited resources we spend the majority of our time on the game itself because. In this niche good games are rewarded regardless of rough edges. Bad games, no matter how slick they are presented, bomb.

But as the game itself gets more and more mature, we are spending more time improving the UI. Version 2.0 has a number of UI improvements including setting Hotkeys within the game. This proves a) we listen to customers and we will make improvements when we think

I HATE the camera controls in CM, they suck, they really do...

In your opinion There are threads where people will passionately disagree with you. Who do I think is right? Both. We need to keep our current controls but also offer alternatives. We know this and we will get to it with Version 3.0 for sure.

In CMx1 paths were shown on ground, not going through the ground like in CMx2... Back in the day CMSF came out I couldn't understand why in the world I couldn't move waypoints, but had to re-plot everything if I wanted to make some adjustments. It's 100% about user-friendlines of the interface, and surely it wouldn't hurt in case of CM either, correct?

Version 2.0 has moveable waypoints, which again shows we understand what we need to do. We just need time to get through the thousands of requests made of us.

I would love to be able to fully focus on the tactical side and what is happening on the ground with my pixeltruppen, but a lot of the time is lost in trying to get into the angle where I can actually see stuff happening. Add to that the fact that if something happens outside my FOV (or I don't manage to see a flickering floating icon) I get no feedback of it happening, especially in the non-rewindable real-time play. I look left and on my right there is a Tiger II killing of some Shermans and infantry... I look back right and there is no indication of this except the dead stuff. It is frustrating and takes away a lot from the otherwise excellent game experience.

Which is why a lot of people prefer WeGo. You can replay the action 1000 times if you want from any perspective. We HOPE to someday have the ability to do this for RT, but it's a technically tough thing to add. Not impossible, but not at the top of our list either.

What I am trying to say is, that having bought every single CM title since CMBO and enjoying them immensely (except CMBN somehow didn't hit the spot... though I bet Market Garden will do it for me), I cannot understand the attitude here on the forums that if something negative (and easily fixable, that would in no way jeopardize the tactical part of the game, but enhance it further!) is pointed out by the reviewers, it's shot down immediately by claiming the said reviewer is incompetent when it comes to tactical "serious" wargames. Seriously?

You definitely are missing the point, as well as people indeed saying they agree with some of the criticisms raised in the review. So what is the point? If you are reviewing a game, a big game for it's market, it is rather foolish and petty to focus on the rough spots and judge the game's worth almost solely on them. For this genre I think most people, including you, would say that the glass is mostly full. Therefore, a review that says the glass is near empty is... well... not exactly useful, is it?

Steve

[womble]

MikeyD I would say we are not really playing the same game at all, the camera makes me feel like I am driving a car with one front wheel flat, it pulls to one side and requires a lot of correction.

I used to hate, hate hate the camera controls.

Then I discovered that if I bind the arrow keys to forward and back and sidescroll on my mouse, I get a pretty slick camera. It's not perfect (particularly on large tree-filled maps, it overshoots pretty badly, and sometimes I want to be able to not have to use a mouse button, since that risks losing either your selected command or your unit selection with the slightest mis-finger), but it's not nearly as hateful as the other ways of controlling the camera.

If Ctrl-[rightclick] (say) did for the point where you click what select-Tab does for a unit, it'd be even better.

If the screen-edge-push was turned off while [rightclick] was pressed, it'd be better yet.

You're right, it's not perfect. Much of the interface isn't, and sometimes the attitude towards basic user interface functions like double-click and scroll bars baffles the bejazus out of me. They're boring, but they're not rocket science, and they'd eliminate lots of little frustrations. Expanding the number of mouseover tooltips would indeed be nice.

[Battlefront.com]

I will write some more later.... I also think combat mission is the best to be had for combined arms simulation. But as said above I would also like some "bog standard defacto industry standard" interface features added. I too cannot for the life of me understand how some of you call the camera controls comparable to total war or other game camera controls.

Because one should NEVER confuse personal preferences/tastes/opinions with irrefutable fact. I think fancy sports cars are a complete and utter waste of money. I would never buy one. But I'm not fool enough to think that my perception is the only one out there.

What we do need, and I fully agree, is more customization options for the camera controls. They are planned, but it's a PITA to code and that means time consuming. Which is why it was pushed back to Version 3.0 despite the knowledge that the flame war between control factions will continue until we get it addressed.

I would love to see one of you debunk all of the reviewers points in a response video.

Putting aside his factual mistakes, you're still missing the point. Everything has flaws. Everything. Focus too much attention on the flaws and you lose the context of the whole. If someone doesn't want a detailed tactical wargaming experience, that's one thing. But if someone is reviewing CM for what it is, which is a serious tactical wargame, then the overall emphasis of the conclusions should balance the problems in the context of it's successes.

Or do you think that flaws, no matter how small, are the most important things to think about when you review something? If you do, can I review your job performance at work? Because I guarantee you I could make a case that you suck and should be fired and I don't even know what you do for a living Being critical without context is really easy to do.

Steve

[Childress]

BTW. You nailed me (again). I was thinking NOT TO order CMFI and wait for next upgrade and order CMFI and new expansion for bargain price, but...

That's how I felt. Originally. I did end up buying CMFI but if I had only known about this upcoming gem BF may have had to wait for my 55 bucks. Not only do the camera controls appear state of the art but the pre-release scuttlebutt hints that the Italian (yes it about THAT campaign) squads can be split down to the individual carabinieri .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LstRXsqC00k

[Collingwood]

The camera controls are very similar to movement controls in many other previous games I've played. What annoys me is when after a long CM session I find my browser and other programs don't respond to w and s to scroll up and down the page.

[ChrisND]

That's how I felt. Originally. I did end up buying CMFI but if I had only known about this upcoming gem BF may have had to wait for my 55 bucks. Not only do the camera controls appear state of the art but the pre-release scuttlebutt hints that the Italian (yes it about THAT campaign) squads can be split down to the individual carabinieri .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LstRXsqC00k

Lego CM. Now THAT would be awesome.

[Chek]

I personally have absolutely no trouble with the camera controls,never have.When people bring it up I am completely perplexed.I've never had a problem getting to where I want to be and doing what i want to do.I find it fluid and totally intuitive.

Obviously some people find the camera controls cumbersome and struggle with them.

Now if there's a problem like a flat tyre,well then the damn things flat isn't and you need to stop and fix it.This is not the case because when people say to me your tyre's flat I'm like wtf this damn things driving perfectly,there's air in my tyre there's no pull to the left or whatever,it's all good.

Perhaps it's more like Automatic and manual(stick shift for you US of A folks).If you learnt to drive in a manual then switching to automatic is easy,just throw your left foot away.Switching the other way ain't so simple.

With manual,although I have to do all the work myself and it can be a little tricky if you ain't used to it,I get to make all the decisions not some computer program or game designer who wants me to be at a specific event at a specific time.

There does seem to be a standard in various computer games(well the ones I've played)as to camera controls and BFC do not adhere to the standard as this isn't really a computer game it's a wargame played on a computer.

Of course this is my opinion and when it comes to opinions Dirty Harry's qoute always springs to mind.

[Destraex1]

Because one should NEVER confuse personal preferences/tastes/opinions with irrefutable fact. I think fancy sports cars are a complete and utter waste of money. I would never buy one. But I'm not fool enough to think that my perception is the only one out there.

What we do need, and I fully agree, is more customization options for the camera controls. They are planned, but it's a PITA to code and that means time consuming. Which is why it was pushed back to Version 3.0 despite the knowledge that the flame war between control factions will continue until we get it addressed.

Putting aside his factual mistakes, you're still missing the point. Everything has flaws. Everything. Focus too much attention on the flaws and you lose the context of the whole. If someone doesn't want a detailed tactical wargaming experience, that's one thing. But if someone is reviewing CM for what it is, which is a serious tactical wargame, then the overall emphasis of the conclusions should balance the problems in the context of it's successes.

Or do you think that flaws, no matter how small, are the most important things to think about when you review something? If you do, can I review your job performance at work? Because I guarantee you I could make a case that you suck and should be fired and I don't even know what you do for a living Being critical without context is really easy to do.

Steve

Actually I was thinking of writing a video response myself to debunk but do not feel qualified.

I do agree that everything has faults, my issue is understanding how some here (not you) flatly deny they exist. These are the people want to see zooming around with the camera nna YouTube video. Not hanging in the sky. But getting down and beinin the thifk otit, playing he sarge.

Sorry. Written from my phone.

[Battlefront.com]

I do agree that everything has faults, my issue is understanding how some here (not you) flatly deny they exist.

Actually, I don't know of any like this. Seriously. Instead, I see two types that might give this impression:

1. "You have made a specific claim of failure, and I disagree because I honestly don't see it as a failure". This is like the camera control issue. The person who is CONVINCED that there is absolutely nothing good about it can not deal with someone who, quite honestly, says they like it. The guy who made the bold claim now has a problem. He can either say "oh, I guess my opinion isn't fact. I respect your difference of opinion. My bad". Or he can say "you are a brain washed wanker, because there is no possibility there is another point of view. Therefore I will now switch my ire against people who have an opinion different than my opinion. I mean fact! Damned apologists for Battlefront are trying to get into my head! See, that's what's wrong with this Forum... you want me to rethinking my certain facts!!:

Unfortunately, all too frequently people choose the latter. Instead of admitting that maybe, just maybe, there is room for debate they try to shut it down by blaming the other side of being incapable of independent thought. Nice one

2. "Combat Mission is the best game of it's type. I really like it and find it's shortcomings not that important to whine and complain about. I trust Battlefront to fix these things over time since they have done that for 12 years." This is even worse than #1 because the person doesn't CARE enough to be mad as Hell and not take it any more!! "What's wrong with you! You should be here every day complaining about something until that something gets fixed! Don't feed Battlefront's egos by telling them you like it, that just makes them not want to fix the things that are so bad with this game! It sucks! I'm so mad I'm going to spend another 2 hours playing CM so I can remind myself why I'm so angry at it! Then tomorrow, I'm going to post again, right after another couple of hours of reminders. I don't play because I like the game, certainly not! Never accuse me of liking this game! Hey, who's up for a H2H Game?"

Oh, and I suppose there is the third type. The type that has seen the same complaint made by the same personality types that they get testy and just fire back at them. But this has nothing to do with the complaint itself, or CM being perfect, it's just utter annoyance.

Well, that's at least my take on this after reading a couple million posts over the last dozen years. Milage may vary

Steve

[sburke]

what? Another review? Yawn.

Hmmmm take the time to read it or.... go back to a decent book on my kindle that might give me an idea for a scenario?

I'll read the book. Even the good reviews aren't all that interesting frankly.

As to the overall back and forth, what the hell are you doing reading millions of posts? Damn it Steve, hire some punk intern to read them and respond on twitter and get back to work!

[Destraex1]

First of all I wanted to clear up that when I said "fault" I did not mean it in the technical sense of the word. I did not mean that the game is "faulty" as all features are by design and work as intended. I meant fault in the way one would say "things I can fault" or in other words things I do not think are right and perhaps could be improved or added.

So please do not think your game is "faulty".

My youtube reply would have been intended to right some wrongs in Mr Allen's review or at least explain to the public how the game system works before criticizing it.

Battlefront have said that you would like to improve the camera control. That to me indicates that your acknowledge not necessarily that their is something wrong, but that a fair few people would like mouse control that other games give.

CMx2 is unique and bridges the gap between turn based wargame and RTS. People who play turn based primarily will be used to what to me are clumsy camera controls and generally a lack of any need for fine, fast, smooth and accurate mouse camera control.

People who play real time games other than CMx2 will be familiar with the need for fine fine mouse camera control. These people will play the game like the RTS games they are used to. My opinion is that they will be frustrated by the camera more often than not like I am.

To me the camera is functional enough and I will eventually be forced to learn the keys for movement as well. But I dream of the smoother camera control I left back with games that depict soldiers like CMx2 but play a lot faster. These games are the ones I imagine the new wargamers will perhaps be graduating from. The problem is they also have what I would term far more fine, fast, smooth and accurate mouse camera control.

Thus I question whether some who are of the opinion that the camera control is top notch and perfect have ever experienced the joy of zoom to cursor or speed across the battlefield to land on a button.

"

MikeyD

Quote:

I HATE the camera controls in CM, they suck, they really do...

Apparently you are playing a different game than I am."

"The fighting sea bee:

As far as the camera goes, it suits me just fine. I can move ask over the map instantly and view from any angle I want. I can snap the view to any unit instantly, track a moving unit, etc. I'm not sure how it could be improved... It's very close to the classic total war style and I like it a lot."

It is of course all a matter of opinion and personal preference. However there are certain things that real time gamers will inevitably be appalled at. Has this stopped me buying every CMx2 game and module to date? Heck no! I love the idea to death and the fact that you guys have done it at all before I die!

The positives far outweigh the negatives. But some of the negatives are certainly I know turning my friend completely off. I wish they could be included, but basic stuff like what they consider a decent camera control immediately has them in a tail spin.

[Vark]

You cannot turn the music off, seriously? That for me would kill any enjoyment, first thing I did in CM1 was kill off the silly tweeting birds (don't you know there is a war on?) and the overly dramatic B-movie sound track? I also found that the sound effects were essential to play the game, sh*t do I hear the squeal of tracks? F**k, that sounded like a spotting round! I loved that aspect of the game, but the music, bleugh!

[theFightingSeabee]

I feel like maybe a couple people need some tips.

Ctrl-click: instant zoom to the point of the click.

Tab: snap to selected unit.

Hold one mouse button to look around.

Hold the other to move smoothly around.

Move the mouse to the edges to move/turn.

Use move buttons to move.

Use number buttons to jump elevations.

Use mouse wheel to switch elevations.

X and Y: zoom in and out.

V: about face!

Basically, it's got all the movement types possible. It's very similar to the Total War games but with even more freedom, especially being able to move the camera higher off the ground and being able to adjust when locked on a unit.

I'm all for constructive criticism; lord knows I've given BFC a ton; but I dont really understand the problems with the camera. Any game you play is going to take a bit getting used to, but the CM camera is one of the least restrictive.

[Fizou]

+1 theFightingSeabee

[LJFHutch]

He made good points in my opinion, personally the floating map and incredibly clunky camera controls have always annoyed me.

It's still a great game though.

but I dont really understand the problems with the camera. Any game you play is going to take a bit getting used to, but the CM camera is one of the least restrictive.

I like the camera, but the way it moves and how you control it are really annoying. It's jerky and slow, like he says, it's really not nice to use after playing something like wargame (though wargame has a few annoying camera issues as well). It seems he didn't really know how to use it though.

[Chek]

CMx2 is unique and bridges the gap between turn based wargame and RTS. People who play turn based primarily will be used to what to me are clumsy camera controls and generally a lack of any need for fine, fast, smooth and accurate mouse camera control.

.

Well I play RT and have no problem with the camera controls,fluid and intuitive.

Once again of course this is just MY OPINION

[womble]

Well I play RT and have no problem with the camera controls,fluid and intuitive.

Once again of course this is just MY OPINION

I think the fluidity of your experience will depend to an extent on the relative capacity of the rig you're running against the size and clutteredness of the battles you play. I get stuttery and overshooting camera movement on large, cluttered maps, but very smooth and precise performance on small ones.

Eidt: turning trees off make the "stutter threshold" a lot higher, too.

[Jorge MC]

for the CM games

players need to combine the mouse with the keyboard, w,q,e,s,tab, z and x

mouse wheel the most use

[Chek]

I think the fluidity of your experience will depend to an extent on the relative capacity of the rig you're running against the size and clutteredness of the battles you play. I get stuttery and overshooting camera movement on large, cluttered maps, but very smooth and precise performance on small ones.

Eidt: turning trees off make the "stutter threshold" a lot higher, too.

{,} enables adjustment of the 3D model quality in game.

Hope this helps

[Destraex1]

I feel like maybe a couple people need some tips.

Ctrl-click: instant zoom to the point of the click.

Tab: snap to selected unit.

Hold one mouse button to look around.

Hold the other to move smoothly around.

Move the mouse to the edges to move/turn.

Use move buttons to move.

Use number buttons to jump elevations.

Use mouse wheel to switch elevations.

X and Y: zoom in and out.

V: about face!

Basically, it's got all the movement types possible. It's very similar to the Total War games but with even more freedom, especially being able to move the camera higher off the ground and being able to adjust when locked on a unit.

I'm all for constructive criticism; lord knows I've given BFC a ton; but I dont really understand the problems with the camera. Any game you play is going to take a bit getting used to, but the CM camera is one of the least restrictive.

I realise you do not understand. That was my point. Its ok.

Try to do all of the above without a keyboard. Thats the way I do things very naturally in other games. Try Sins of a Solar empire for perfection or Wargame European Escalation. No need for any keys and all of the above is perfectly possible.

I do not expect better camera controls from Battlefront. I just don't think it should be surprising that people comment on it or that people ask for it.

I appreciate the tips in good faith as well.

[Destraex1]

Well I play RT and have no problem with the camera controls,fluid and intuitive.

Once again of course this is just MY OPINION

What real time game are you comparing it to?

[Chek]

What real time game are you comparing it to?

as opposed to wego!!!!

[womble]

I realise you do not understand. That was my point. Its ok.

Try to do all of the above without a keyboard. Thats the way I do things very naturally in other games. Try Sins of a Solar empire for perfection or Wargame European Escalation. No need for any keys and all of the above is perfectly possible.

If I chose, all those things could be done from my mouse. I'm toying with the idea of taking "Target" and "Target Light" off the mouse buttons and replacing them with Zoom and Unzoom. I don't have "flip view" bound, but I could.

Then again, it's a G700, but I wouldn't be without it for any game, any more.

I just don't think it should be surprising that people comment on it or that people ask for it.

No, certainly not. It took a lot of trial and error to get my mouse setup working well. The entire learning experience could do with a massive overhaul.

[Destraex1]

as opposed to wego!!!!

wego does not enter into it for me.

I was asking what game "other" than combat mission he was talking about.