John Kettler Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 In the game that crashed and vanished, I had an FO with direct LOS to a certain stretch of road where I knew an AC was, since it kept lashing my flank. I tried not one but two fire missions, one with two guns, the other with four. Duration was Quick, delay 5 minutes. Would you believe not one round came anywhere near the target? Had it been, say, up 100, left 50, it would've obliterated the AC and anything near it. Instead I blasted the nearby wheat field with 12 precious rounds and had nothing but frustration to show for it. The LOS was not blocked by smoke, and my FO could clearly see the road segment aimpoint. How could he miss so spectacularly not once, but twice? Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 what was the experience level of the FO? was he under fire? **** happens. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Clearly your soldiers are incompetent. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noob Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 One off incidents don't carry any weight, my advice would be to recreate the same situation and run multiple tests, then post your findings. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted June 20, 2012 Author Share Posted June 20, 2012 Sublime, Veteran, I believe, not under fire, either. What baffles me is he's put in stellar shoots time and again which wreaked havoc on the foe. This time, he probably made the AC crew laugh. Vanir Ausf B, Good one! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 John, Without a screen capture or save game file, it's impossible to say for sure what is going on in this specific case. In general, if an FO has good LOS to the target vicinity, the strike will come in on-target in CMx2. However, one thing to be aware of in CMx2 is that, unlike CMx1, CMx2 models the fact that it's important for an artillery observer is able to see where the spotting round(s) fall in order to make corrections and call in the FFE accurately. So, if your FO had a keyhole LOS to the target spot, but could *not* see the location(s) where the spotting rounds fell, the strike may well come in off-target. For this reason, in general you want to make sure your FOs have a good, broad LOS when calling in artillery; a narrow, keyhole LOS to the target point just won't do it. The other thing to check is make sure you aren't calling in an "Emergency" mission -- Emergency missions in CMx2 truncate the spotting round process, exchanging speed to FFE for accuracy; they usually come in off-target. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 "unlike CMx1, CMx2 models the fact that it's important for an artillery observer is able to see where the spotting round(s) fall in order to make corrections and call in the FFE accurately." IIRC CM1 had the same requirement. If the spotting round was unseen, the barrage would be inaccurate. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 "unlike CMx1, CMx2 models the fact that it's important for an artillery observer is able to see where the spotting round(s) fall in order to make corrections and call in the FFE accurately." IIRC CM1 had the same requirement. If the spotting round was unseen, the barrage would be inaccurate. Did it? I don't remember that... oh well; it's been a while since I fired up CMx1. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 "unlike CMx1, CMx2 models the fact that it's important for an artillery observer is able to see where the spotting round(s) fall in order to make corrections and call in the FFE accurately." IIRC CM1 had the same requirement. If the spotting round was unseen, the barrage would be inaccurate. Pretty much. It was more a case of when the spotting round didn't fall at all in the first place then the artillery fire was guaranteed to be off target. I suppose it could be argued that the spotting round wasn't seen to fall due to it landing somewhere off the battlefield that one had access to but that couldn't be the case in CMx1 as the ammo. count never reduced from the rounds available to the spotter, in the case of no spotting round seen to fall anywhere on the battlefield. Regards KR 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 I've seen incidents where I target close to the map edge, a round fall unseen beyond the map so the artillery keeps slowly firing spotting round after spotting hoping the FO will eventually spot one of them so he can correct 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted June 20, 2012 Author Share Posted June 20, 2012 YankeeDog, Good point, but the missions were NOT fired on Emergency priority. Why? I vaguely recalled something from the CMSF Forum that such missions traded accuracy for speed. I don't recall any LOS issue with seeing either spotting round, either. I have to say that I HATE the fact that LOS can't be traced to the tops of shell bursts, treetops, building roof peaks, etc., ALL of which real FOs did during the war. Anyone know a way to stack action spots?! Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chas_in_mlb Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 I've had squads half-taken out by my own spotting rounds. Not fun. One time I remember yelling @ my PC and I'm pretty sure that my neighbours think that I'm insane and responding to voices inside my head. Now all friendlies must be @ least 200m away or it's danger close. Sounds like a job opportunity for a tank-hunting team; split off one (better yet, two) antitank teams from your squads and send them on a mission. It's great fun- I love doing that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 I never ever ever use 'emergency' artillery fire. If you do that you might as well target a random spot on the map, it'll increase like likelyhood the rounds will fall where you want them to. Because they sure as heck ain't gonna fall where you targeted! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 YI have to say that I HATE the fact that LOS can't be traced to the tops of shell bursts... That's a "fact" is it? I've had plenty of successful arty calls where the spotting "splashes" were all at places where the FO couldn't "possibly" see the ground zero. One failed mission does not a malfunction make. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Ferrous Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 I had one occasion when an emergency strike DID fall on target, well about 30metres off, which was near enough to pretty well take out an entire AI led platoon. Usually though emergency fires are off target by 100+ metres in my experience of CM2. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 I have to say that I HATE the fact that LOS can't be traced to the tops of shell bursts, treetops, building roof peaks, etc., ALL of which real FOs did during the war. Are you sure that is the case? LOS can be traced to treetops and rooftops. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted June 20, 2012 Author Share Posted June 20, 2012 Vanir Ausf B, You can see it, but you can't target it. Now, if BFC let FOs work from the back side of roofs, with just binos and part of a head peering over the top, which also happened in WW II in urban combat, then maybe they could be targeted, bypassing the issue. Likewise, if they let snipers climb trees, then maybe we could target on that basis. In the instant case, the spotting round's burst towered well over over any terrain between it and the FO, so should've been easy to adjust, but if LOS for fire adjustment purposes is where the burst meets the ground, then that may explain the problem--which shouldn't exist if things are properly modeled. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 ...if LOS for fire adjustment purposes is where the burst meets the ground, then that may explain the problem--which shouldn't exist if things are properly modeled... And since perfectly (for a given value of perfect) accurate strikes can be called in when the ground zero of the spotting rounds cannot be seen, your contention is inaccurate. Just because the plumes "tower over" things doesn't mean your spotter can necessarily see it. You've had the best explanation anyone will be able to give without seeing the entire spotting sequence. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrailApe Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 I've seen incidents where I target close to the map edge, a round fall unseen beyond the map so the artillery keeps slowly firing spotting round after spotting hoping the FO will eventually spot one of them so he can correct The FOO's assistant should 'grip' the young gentleman and tell him to sort his life out. Honestly.......Ruperts.... The unobserved spotting round is not something unusual, in real life the FOO would have made an appreciation of the ground and noted areas where a round’s impact might be obscured – so when ‘splash’ occurs and nothing is immediately seen, he would quickly scan the ‘dead’ areas looking for clues. If nobody see’s anything then it’s a frantic check of the map and signals log just to make sure the right information has been passed. If everything is ok, then that’s when the FOO earns his money, either calls for a round on the same data (‘repeat’ in modern parlance) or makes a bold correction to bring it into view – although obviously he is making an assumption on where he thinks the lost round has impacted. All exciting stuff and certainly breaks the monotony of a dull morning on the ranges. I understand that the Arty Spotting process is abstracted, but it would be a nice item if the CMx2 engine alerted the player when the Fall of Shot had been missed – flashing icon or something – and then the player can allow for this without wasting precious rounds. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sakai007 Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Trail, that was one of the more complete requests for a new feature I've seen yet. Calling arty is half of this game IMO, and sometimes it really should be called Fire Mission instead of Combat Mission. I think your ideas are outstanding, and I hope someone takes notice of them! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
altipueri Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Please stop it. This game is tedious enough already. They've turned a great game into a mediocre one. More stimulation less simulation. Discombobulation. Any other ...ulation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baneman Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 I understand that the Arty Spotting process is abstracted, but it would be a nice item if the CMx2 engine alerted the player when the Fall of Shot had been missed – flashing icon or something – and then the player can allow for this without wasting precious rounds. Yes, this is the one thing that has bothered me from the beginning in CMBN's artillery spotting process - there's currently no way the player knows (for sure) whether the FO can see the spotting rounds or not. My suggestion would be to use the little circles that already exist in the UI representing the barrel-heat - add a 2nd set to represent the spotting rounds and colour the unobserved ones red or black or something - too many reds, call off the strike ... or summat. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrailApe Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Please stop it. This game is tedious enough already. They've turned a great game into a mediocre one. More stimulation less simulation. Discombobulation. Any other ...ulation. Altipueri - remember one mans incoming is another mans perfect fire mission. If you really want stimulation over simulation (and there's nothing wrong with that) there are a lot of games out there that will cater to your prefences. If I'm enraged by CMBN (usually because I've done something stupid and got a platoon wasted - I can accept the current limitations of the game) I fire up World of Tanks. It's free, not really historically accurate, but quite fun. Then, when I've been blasted off the map too many times (because I'm VERY average) and I have a garage full of tanks 'still in mission', full of hell and cursing about noob campers I go back to CMBN. Come to think of it, these hobbies of mine are probably doing my blood pressure no good at all. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
altipueri Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Playing armour only QBs is my solution. I can play with myself, so to speak. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted June 22, 2012 Author Share Posted June 22, 2012 womble, Seeing as how the spotting round's plume was well over four times taller than the intervening hedgerow and in plain sight of my FO, I fail to see how I'm wrong--barring the FO and/or the FDC's being dyslexic. "Shot out!" would be nice in the VO. TrailApe, Somewhere in the CM archives is a hilarious account of the U.S. Army artillery officer (circa 1990s) teaching young Redlegs their trade--except he couldn't shoot worth a hoot himself, completely failing to get a bracket in the allotted 12 (or was it 18?) rounds. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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