Is it morale, or do Panther crews love their mounts so much...

[John Kettler]

SPOILER ALERT! SPOILER ALERT!

They refuse to bail out. I pound them practically to scrap. I immobilize them, smash their optics, shoot off their radio antennae, wreck their MGs, pound them with 105s and as many as 3 M10s firing frontally. From quartering aspects, I sieve their wheels, pierce their track skirts (mysteriously failing to get into the thin armor behind same), pound their gun mounts, etc. Nothing seems to make them abandon their armored beasts. Repeated armor spalling doesn't even cause crew casualties. NO amount of fire produces an F-Kill, I have to area fire at a dust cloud, but the dust cloud seems to have no trouble killing my armor, even after hail fire from every weapon that'll bear.

My understanding of the general rule of WW II tank warfare is that if you get hit and lose mobility, you get out promptly, for the next shot may very well kill you. Are the Panther crews in Closing the Gap fanatics? If not, why can't I get them to bail out? As it is, they simply become defenders of all but unkillable fortresses. Worse, they seem to be able to find amazing sight lines that let them cover each other through terrain I can barely see anything in, let alone fire effectively. Speaking of that, how do I fire smoke from my tanks and TDs? With smashed mortars being the norm, I need to learn how to screen ballsy dashes to get in close on the flanks. Two such attempts almost worked. Forgot to add that when my TDs had clean shots at the Panther's turret flank, they instead bounded shot after shot off the frontally presented glacis!

Regards,

John Kettler

[YankeeDog]

As a general rule, *your* Panthers will be knocked out, or at least take serious damage like main gun-KO or immobilization, on the first hit. Your opponent's Panthers will last through multiple hits by high-caliber AT weapons, from all aspects.

In all seriousness, do some searches and read back through forum posts, and you'll find many thread complaining about the vulnerability of Panthers to progressive damage from multiple non-penetrating hits. So there has been whining on both sides of the issue here.

But as to this specifically:

My understanding of the general rule of WW II tank warfare is that if you get hit and lose mobility, you get out promptly, for the next shot may very well kill you.

Not all nationalities trained their crews this way at all times during the war. Specifically, German Panther and Tiger crews were at least sometimes taught to stay in a damaged tank unless and until the tank caught fire. I've read several Panzer memoirs that specifically mention this training point. It also seems to be an aspect of training that was honored at least as often in the breach as in the observance, but there it is.

[Fizou]

I can only say that I have seen a lot of things playing CMBN. YDs general rule often comes into effect

Ive had my Panther crews bail from both immobilized and non immoboilized tanks.

I think morale/motivation has a big impact. Not sure what level is present in the specific scenario?

[Baneman]

Yes, and this seems to happen at least as often in reverse as well. In the "super Sherman" thread, I mentioned I lost a Panther to a Partial Penetration - all 5 crew bailed from what ( you'd think ) is not a fatal hit.

An opposing Sherman which took 4 Penetrations (from a Panther) without being KO'd has now taken a 5th penetration from a Schreck and they STILL haven't bailed - AND I'm pretty sure they're immobilised because it hasn't moved in about 5 turns.

Although they still have a way to go to beat my record from CMBB in which an opposing tank took 11 Penetrations before killing my tank with a single shot

So it happens, but of course, it's always your opponent's tanks which behave like this

Just once, I'd like to get the Zombie-tank-from-Hell on my side

[Vergeltungswaffe]

Motivation level plays a HUGE part in their willingness, or unwillingness, to deass the vehicle in my experience.

[Mord]

Specifically, German Panther and Tiger crews were at least sometimes taught to stay in a damaged tank unless and until the tank caught fire.

I can back that up. I just saw a show a few months back where a German tanker brought up that very point...how they were being pounded by some small caliber atg and their training stated they couldn't bail until a fire started. LOL and the second they saw smoke they high tailed it.

@John...I've seen plenty of Panthers bail while testing various Mods.

Mord.

[umlaut]

...I've seen plenty of Panthers bail while testing various Mods.

You mean, you´ve made Panther mods so hideous that it´ll make the crews bail? ;-)

[Mord]

Yeah, that's probably what WOULD happen if I ever attempted modding a vehicle!

Mord.

[Amizaur]

I also have noticed that the crew motivation rating is very important when it comes to abandoning vehicles.

I didn't test non-penetrating hits, but casualities after penetrations. And crews with Very High or Fanatic morale often didn't bail out even after multiple penetrations. Which MAY be right - for fanatics, real problem was that those multiple penetrations done very little damage to the crew itself (casualities after low and medium-energy pentrations were very rare or not common).

On the other hand, Normally motivated crews usually bailed out after 1-2 penetrations, even if nobody was killed. Sometimes after non-penetrating damaging hits. And the abandoned vehicle was marked as "destroyed" then.

The result was that it was easier to "destroy" a tank with Normal crew than with Fanatic crew . It took - on average - less hits.

I would suggest increasing a bit the crew casualty rate (especially after penetrations, casualty rate from spall is ok for me), and making the crews to bail out a bit easier. Shifting the effect of morale by one position down (after the change the Fanatic motivation would work like Very High works now, ect).

It's possible that the first one (increasing casuality rate) would be enough, as more casualties mean more frequent bail-outs.

[John Kettler]

Semi heartening news, I guess. So far, and with an admittedly small sample size, I have seen exactly two cases in which a Sherman or TD actually survived a hit and didn't bail. The M10 took some sort of hit which franged its optics, radio and some other stuff, so reversed into full defilade at the rear of the map. In the other, a Sherman raced in for a flank shot, survived a penetrating hit from a Panther at tens of meters, banged off a shot (weapon mount, natch, not the wide open side, only to eat a fatal shot seconds later. And would someone explain to me how a Panther with its monster round can reload and fire before a Sherman with a stubby round? Also, does anyone know why main gun ROF for Shermans and TDs seems to be a round a minute, even when firing from the dead halt?

Regards,

John Kettler

[Baneman]

... And would someone explain to me how a Panther with its monster round can reload and fire before a Sherman with a stubby round? Also, does anyone know why main gun ROF for Shermans and TDs seems to be a round a minute, even when firing from the dead halt?

Again, RoF must depend on crew quality and so forth - in my previously mentioned example of the Zombie-Sherman, the entire exchange of fire took place in 1 single turn, so that's 4 shots from the Panther and 5 from the Sherman in a 60 second period.

Also, my Panther got off the first shot by about a second or two, but the Sherman got the 5th shot off before my Panther got his 5th off, so the Sherman crew reloaded fractionally faster. Of course, that was a Sherman with a 76 - maybe the "stubby 75" is slower

[Vanir Ausf B]

Also, does anyone know why main gun ROF for Shermans and TDs seems to be a round a minute, even when firing from the dead halt?

I know why. It's because you haven't played the game nearly enough to know what their real ROF is, which for a Sherman 75 with Regular crew is 7-8 RPM.

[womble]

Also, does anyone know why main gun ROF for Shermans and TDs seems to be a round a minute, even when firing from the dead halt?

Was your tank turning to face a new target at all, perhaps? This is a problem that applies to all turreted AFVs: they can't turn their hull and gun at the same time, and they will always (absent Covered Arcs, and even they get ignored quite a lot) turn their bow to face what they're shooting at. This results in the gun being turned off line as the hull turns. The turret rotates back on line when the hull rotation pauses, but as soon as it's on target again, the hull rotates some more. This can severely dent a vehicle's RoF until they settle their orientation, and is evident if you observe carefully.

If your vehicle got hit, that'll affect its RoF too.

Also, you're playing with the same handicaps and benefits the whole time, since you refuse to buy the game. So if your tanks in a given scenario are Green vs enemy Veterans you're going to be seeing effects that are less to do with vehicle types and relative capabilities than they are to do with the relative abilities of crews. Your reportage of this sort of difference as "apparently typical" is a largely worthless exercise. It's "apparent" only because you don't have a large enough sample size, which makes it an artefact of your situation.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Nothing wrong with loving your mount, but I would never call her that to her face.

[chas_in_mlb]

Nothing wrong with loving your mount, but I would never call her that to her face.

Not unless you want to call the couch your "mount".

Playing the Buron scenario "Sticking it Out" I learned that the M10 can't do doodley-squat against the Panther (unless it's a rear shot, I guess). My 17lb ATG's, OTOH, made mince out of them. The ridge to the SE had four burning Panthers. One blew up and made it's own crater. The last one tried to skirt the orchard to the SSE and my other 17lb'er tasked that one, too. As Dieter on Sprockets would say, "I was as happy as a little girl".

Only thing is- I had 5 Panthers, three (I think) STG's and at least five halftracks burning or knocked out and all I got was a "Minor Victory".

[Vanir Ausf B]

Believe it or not, I don't own a couch.

[sburke]

Believe it or not, I don't own a couch.

Hope you have at least got a sleeping bag then to cushion sleeping on the floor.*

*assuming you are still allowed indoors.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Technically it's a loveseat. And yes I have slept on it