This is why I stopped playing...

[ASL Veteran]

I honestly do not know what historically happened in WW2 but I assume they carried watches that only advanced forwards without a countdown function ......

So I take it you are in the 'no time limits' camp? There will always be time limits for battles in games so you might as well be complaining about the sun rising every morning. The part you are missing is that your little battalion or company command isn't the only unit on the battlefield. Attacks generally kicked off at specific times so that all units involved can coordinate their efforts and if you aren't keeping up then neighboring units could be taking heavy casualties because you are out of position.

Military history is replete with examples where a main attack can't kick off before 'enemy position X' is taken because that position dominates the rest of the battlefield. You can easily find examples of time pressure on attacking troops going all the way back to the days of Alexander the Great. In fact, the precise timing of Alexander's heavy cavalry charges against the Persians were key to his great victories. Wait too long and the moment is lost. Strike to early and the attack will fail. You seriously don't think there is any time pressure involved in battle?

[Vanir Ausf B]

So I take it you are in the 'no time limits' camp?

You've completely missed his point, which is far more trivial than you are giving him credit for. He doesn't mind time limits, he minds that the game clock counts down instead of up.

I put this in with tank reverse speeds as "stuff only DT would ever care about".

[sburke]

So I take it you are in the 'no time limits' camp? There will always be time limits for battles in games so you might as well be complaining about the sun rising every morning. The part you are missing is that your little battalion or company command isn't the only unit on the battlefield. Attacks generally kicked off at specific times so that all units involved can coordinate their efforts and if you aren't keeping up then neighboring units could be taking heavy casualties because you are out of position.

Military history is replete with examples where a main attack can't kick off before 'enemy position X' is taken because that position dominates the rest of the battlefield. You can easily find examples of time pressure on attacking troops going all the way back to the days of Alexander the Great. In fact, the precise timing of Alexander's heavy cavalry charges against the Persians were key to his great victories. Wait too long and the moment is lost. Strike to early and the attack will fail. You seriously don't think there is any time pressure involved in battle?

LOL no that wasn't what he meant. He is referring to the clock counting down versus up. Personally I think that is one of those 6 of 1, 1/2 dozen of the other discussions. The clock is telling you how much time you have LEFT. That seems perfectly reasonable to me, but I'd probably be fine with it counting up as well. It falls in line I think with quite a few of the complaints. They are personal preference. Subjective feelings are a no win. BFC will never make everyone happy. My attitude when I come across those items is usually "meh, I might not have done it that way, but can I make sense of it.. yeah.. okay time to move on." And that is likely the last time I will spend a second of thought on it... until it comes up on the forum.

* Seems Vanir beat me to it on the reply and his is a little more..... errrr brief. ;-P

[poesel]

Good point General Lee. But that is three primarily US sports versus the World! : ).

World here :

I have never ever thought about this. All sports I'm interested in count upwards. But for CM that has never bothered me. In fact IMHO its quite useful to know that you have 23 minutes left instead of to know that the battle lasted for 23 minutes or that it is 14.23 (sorry - 2.23 PM for you ) - uh, how long was this scenario now?

If you would complain about the compass - now we are talking!

[Vanir Ausf B]

Changing a game system because it can provide more realism/colour is not the same thing as saying we will have more sales because the game is realistic. The argument might be that further complexity may deter ...

I asked you earlier what the alternative was. CMx1 sales were declining with each release. And because they had already covered the ETO and Soviet Front they were stuck with covering progressively more niche theaters of conflict or abandoning WW2 if they stayed with CMx1.

CMx2 is more complex. That is largely because of 2 factors.

1:1 infantry

This is a huge step forward. The abstract 3 man squads were one of the most common complains about the CMx1 games. More tactical options enriches the game.

C2

The new C2 model is admittedly more of a mixed bag. The modeling of radio communications is a big step forward. On the minus side, the effects of C2 are now largely opaque to the player. And there are a significant number of seemingly arbitrary rules and restrictions that are mostly undocumented. It needs some work.

Have you looked into Panzer Command Ostfront? I've never played it but I've seen it described as CMx1.5.

[sburke]

I asked you earlier what the alternative was. CMx1 sales were declining with each release. And because they had already covered the ETO and Soviet Front they were stuck with covering progressively more niche theaters of conflict or abandoning WW2 if they stayed with CMx1.

CMx2 is more complex. That is largely because of 2 factors.

1:1 infantry

This is a huge step forward. The abstract 3 man squads were one of the most common complains about the CMx1 games. More tactical options enriches the game.

C2

The new C2 model is admittedly more of a mixed bag. The modeling of radio communications is a big step forward. On the minus side, the effects of C2 are now largely opaque to the player. And there are a significant number of seemingly arbitrary rules and restrictions that are mostly undocumented. It needs some work.

Have you looked into Panzer Command Ostfront. I've never played it but I've seen it described as CMx1.5.

Agreed with all you stated, but chasing the sales figures as rationale is I think a certain injustice. Yeah granted one would assume Steve and Charles would like to be able to have their business provide at least a comfortable living, but the sense I get (purely a sense here) is that they are more driven by what they want to create than the sales numbers themselves. As much talent as CM shows in it's design I can't imagine if they really wanted to make a fast buck, they could not do so without so much hassle. Let's face it, they have chosen to work within a narrow niche in game design that is bound to please a very small subset of even the wargaming community. They have done so by reviewing what they perceive as the basic flaw in design for effect that most of the tactical wargaming world is built on and decided to slay the beast as it were and try to do something that inherently should create a more realistic experience to the extent one can with the tools at hand.

Considering they are the sole standard bearers of this model, they have only their own judgement to rely on and not 10,000 Monday morning quarterbacks who are speaking after the fact with no investment of time, money or resources telling them how they could/should do it better.

Many items of it are absolutely a work in progress. Steve's own statements about UI development are a case in point. However the shift has been made and there is no going back.

I work in the technology arena specifically on phone systems. Been doing it for 20+ years and right now I am actively watching the demise of my career. Well maybe not my career, but the technology the way the last few generations have looked at it. Pretty soon "telephone call" will be consigned to the same dustbin that cassette, video tape etc have all gone. I could fight it, or I can try to grasp what it is becoming and try to be part of that. I know plenty of old phone techs who just gripe and now just pull cable.

For me, watching BFC is like watching some dotcom come along and completely alter the playing field. Yeah it is new (well maybe not that new, but considering how small BFC is and what the rest of the wargaming industry is doing, it is still new) and yeah it may be rough on some of the edges, but as JonS said several times in his DAR last year.. "wow, just wow". Pretty much sums it up for me. CMx2 has matured nicely, I still can't get my head around what CMx3 might be, but I have a lot of faith in these guys.

Oh and Diesel, Bois de Baugin if you hadn't noticed my sig or previous AAR and screenshot postings, is probably my all time favorite in game scenario. The artillery becomes available at 14:55 to 15:00 or by the game clock prior to 60:00. That was one of if not the first scenarios I played in CMBN and it really did not tax my mental abilities to understand the schedule. Hell I spend a lot more time trying to figure out what time my coworkers want to schedule that meeting - was that 1pm PST or EST. CET? Are you f**kin kidding me?!!

[Chek]

OMG are u guys really discussing the clock

[General Lee Irked]

Good point General Lee. But that is three primarily US sports versus the World! : ).

PS

"Canada and US, the two major countries for hockey, started using this timer. For sports in all other countries, the timers all counted up to make it easier to announce. (ie: A goal with 7:47 left on the olympic clock would be read as 12:13, which is the time they announce.)"

Just pulling at the tigers tail here, but do hourglasses peeve you off as well?

For me it does not make a difference in my gaming experience but if I were developing and looking at simplifying the gaming interface, I believe that a countdown clock is more efficient in the variable timed scenarios. That might surely be a result of my North American upbringing.

At any rate I can sympathize with many players gripes however with me and my casual gaming experience I am enjoying the game as it stands (obliviousness is bliss in my case). Your milage may vary.

[dieseltaylor]

Interesting only one answer mentions the specific example of time! I have no idea if there are bigger scenarios with exactly the same type of description where multiple units become available at different times after the start of the battle.

So I regard that specific point as a valid criticism of running the reinforcement description one way and the clock the other. Perhaps I missed out on it but I never recalled in CMX1 anyone calling for the clock to be changed to US sports style. Where did it come from ?

Also I think most people would agree minus minutes is plain ugly.

[dieseltaylor]

VAB. I am now of such an advanced age that I invest for fun and eventually hopefully a profit. I trained in accountancy and in banking and am familiar with businesses cashflow, products, etc etc so I can fully understand if there were declining sales for the CMx1 series requires some thinking as to what to do next.

And BF decided to go for a more detailed infantry model deriving from what successfully occurred with CMx1. Whether it was the best decision to make can never be known.

Sburke talks of Monday quarterbacks and Charles and Steve but most of us have no idea as to the income/expenditure and the team dynamics so we are slightly blind as to the possibles and impossibilities for BF. However as we are paying beta-testers I think we are entitled to post our views. Hopefully with some rational reasons for our view.

We are the market research participants after the event : )

Perhaps I should look again at PZOstF but I am torn by a some vestigal loyalty to the CM series and the pain of the still slightly banjaxed game.

[Vanir Ausf B]

However as we are paying beta-testers I think we are entitled to post our views. Hopefully with some rational reasons for our view.

We are the market research participants after the event : )

Of course. But that is true of almost any consumer product.

[sburke]

VAB. I am now of such an advanced age that I invest for fun and eventually hopefully a profit. I trained in accountancy and in banking and am familiar with businesses cashflow, products, etc etc so I can fully understand if there were declining sales for the CMx1 series requires some thinking as to what to do next.

And BF decided to go for a more detailed infantry model deriving from what successfully occurred with CMx1. Whether it was the best decision to make can never be known.

Sburke talks of Monday quarterbacks and Charles and Steve but most of us have no idea as to the income/expenditure and the team dynamics so we are slightly blind as to the possibles and impossibilities for BF. However as we are paying beta-testers I think we are entitled to post our views. Hopefully with some rational reasons for our view.

We are the market research participants after the event : )

Perhaps I should look again at PZOstF but I am torn by a some vestigal loyalty to the CM series and the pain of the still slightly banjaxed game.

Not to beat a dead horse, but again I think it is important to note the decision was made WHILE CMBB was in development. There were no declining sales figures at that point.

As to whether it was the best decision to be made, yes I do think we can answer that. Can my infantry perform tactics it should be able to do that they were completely incapable of doing in CMx1? Absolutely yes. Borg spotting vs relative spotting, no contest. The envelope please, aw skip the envelope, completely unnecessary.

And you are exactly correct, we are the market participants, hell we are the market. And the market has spoken. BFs financial state has apparently improved enough to hire a second programmer. And that is after selecting an era and setting that the howls of protest still have not died from. They are showing no signs of slowing down on their release of new product while at the same time looking forward to possibly an even stronger engine. Let's face it, these guys know their business model a heck of a lot better than any of us and also seem to have some perspective on what the community wants that isn't at all reflected in this forum, yours truly included. I would never have thought to go to a modern era with the engine first. And yet I am glad they did. It's bad enough listening to the "but in Cmx1 it was this way..." now. Imagine if they'd launched CMBN instead of CMAK.

Word of warning to you. Whatever teething pains you may feel CMx2 may have, PZOstf is gonna drop a significant portion of what makes CM what it is. Your bar may simply be set incorrectly. Instead of accepting that some things are just not going to be set to your personal taste or that some issues just aren't important enough to warrant BFs attention to most of the community, you are looking for a product that meets what you think the important design decisions should be. Unless you design your own, that isn't likely to happen. It is just the way the world works. If on the other hand you find something that more appeals to your taste, why by all means enjoy it.

[Sgt Joch]

a few points:

1. No game is 100% realistic. If you want 100% realism, join the Army;

2. As a corollary of #1, every simulation which has ever been released has had design compromises, some reflect the vision/prejudices of the designers, some are due to time/money constraints. If someone is uncomfortable with ANY compromises, refer back to #1 above;

3. The 3D infantry modelling in CMx2 is not perfect, could be improved, is being worked on, etc., etc., however, it is light years ahead of CMx1 which had NO 3d infantry modeling, just a totally abstract 2d model. If someone prefers the CMx1 model, then by all means, play CMx1.

4. Suppression/morale effects are hard to get right since the reports/history/anecdotes are subjective/contradictory and everyone has a different interpretation of what is "realistic".

5. Suppression/morale effects are actually very easy to modify. When the CMSF: Marines module was being worked on, Charles went through several builds where he jacked up and down the suppression/morale effects. At the highest level, the Syrians would just melt away as soon as you started firing in their direction. Fun, but not very challenging. Increasing the suppression/morale effect on the defenders is easy, but a corollary is that attackers will become stalled/pinned/broken just as quickly.

6. If anyone wants to increase the suppression/morale effects on their own, it is very easy, just notch down the experience/morale/leadership factors of troops in a scenario 1-2 level. When I originally designed the "Bridge at Varaville" scenario, I gave the Canadian paras very high motivation and the Germans poor motivation, but it was too lopsided. The Canadians refused to break or be suppressed and the Jerries could not carry out an attack so I had to tweak it to get to the final product, however, even a small tweak can have a big impact.

7. Posters who freely throw about the term "fanboy" lack the basic social/debating skills to carry on a rational, cogent debate.

[Fuser]

Hat off...simple, yet convincing.

[Crushingleeek]

and there you have it gents.

what's our next 200-post debate going to be on?

I swear i hope its not the clock

[sburke]

and there you have it gents.

what's our next 200-post debate going to be on?

I swear i hope its not the clock

Now about that clock thing. I don't like the number font.

[Glukx Ouglouk]

World here :

I have never ever thought about this. All sports I'm interested in count upwards. But for CM that has never bothered me. In fact IMHO its quite useful to know that you have 23 minutes left instead of to know that the battle lasted for 23 minutes or that it is 14.23 (sorry - 2.23 PM for you ) - uh, how long was this scenario now?

If you would complain about the compass - now we are talking!

Same here. The thing about the clock, is that a countdown clock is more intuitive when the time limit isn't always the same. A soccer game is always 90 minutes long, so it's easy to understand that there is 10 minutes left when the clock displays "80:00"... But a CM battle can just as easily be be 30 minutes or 2 hours long, so you'd have to remember the time limit shown in the briefing, or you'd need to see both the limit and the clock in the GUI. The countdown is easy to understand, without cluttering up the GUI. Good compromise IMO.

Of course, you still need to remember the time limit to calculate when your reinforcements are supposed to show up - but if you remember the reinforcements' ETA, you might as well remember what the time limit was anyway.

As for the compass... I think we just need to say a big THANK YOU to all the modders who have made better ones!

[Crushingleeek]

Now about that clock thing. I don't like the number font.

i think its pretty standard. IIRC, the standard issue font in WWII was just like that, so I think this is actually fairly accurate. How dare you question the font.

[sburke]

i think its pretty standard. IIRC, the standard issue font in WWII was just like that, so I think this is actually fairly accurate. How dare you question the font.

You of course know what this means? It makes you a fontboi.

Okay okay yes I am really sorry to utter such a lame joke. Just finished dinner and a half bottle of wine and couldn't help myself.

[Crushingleeek]

yikes dinner and wine at 11:30 AM in san jose?

[sburke]

yikes dinner and wine at 11:30 AM in san jose?

Nah business trip - Rome..even for me 11:30am is a bit early for wine

[Vark]

sburke, keep drinking, from what I hear the Italian economy needs as much help as possible! As for clocks, it might be nice to have a period, military issue, wristwatch showing the time (how many films have the men anxiously gazed at the ticking hands, before something happens, or the brilliant scene in The Big Red One, showing time passing). You could have different clock faces for the nations, and the WEGO could have the minute hand as the timer for the turn. Just a thought to make it atmospheric.

As for all the other points, mere speculation, only BF know the truth and they have either told us everything or they are holding back. I think the later, as they are in a commercial venture with a sometimes fractious customer base. I'm still not convinced, work pressure means little spare time and whereas I'd fire up a CM1 scenario and have an hour blasting through it, I think CM2 requires more time invested. It also seems to require a mental dexterity that I do not have, after work. At the moment, my Red army hordes have secured three crossing points on the Weser river, beaten of a combined German/Uk counter attack and are rolling eastwards, yup TOAW III has taken the strain.

[Baneman]

You of course know what this means? It makes you a fontboi.

Okay okay yes I am really sorry to utter such a lame joke. Just finished dinner and a half bottle of wine and couldn't help myself.

Are you Little Lord Fontleroy ?

[sburke]

Are you Little Lord Fontleroy ?

rotflmao Yes and I am a Font of useless trivia.

[Michael Emrys]

At the moment, my Red army hordes have secured three crossing points on the Weser river, beaten of a combined German/Uk counter attack and are rolling eastwards, yup TOAW III has taken the strain.

Eastwards??? Please tell me this is a counter-factual fantasy scenario (the Germs and the Brits on the same side suggests as much).

Michael