Why can't tanks push destroyed vehicles out of the way

[Georgie]

I played a scenario that required the use of a section of road by my tanks but a destroyed truck was in the way. My tanks had to thread their way around the destroyed truck through out the entire scenario. It would be more fun and realistic to just be able to push the truck aside.

[umlaut]

There was a thread on that subject some time ago (try searching) and if I remember correctly, the reasoning was something like this: Yes, a Tiger should be able to push a truck out the way. But should it be able to push a Stug out of the way? And should a PSW 222 be able to push the truck? - and so on.

In short, I think the answer is, that it would be too complicated to model all the different push dos and don´ts - relative to the weight/power of each individual type of vehicle.

[PaulMG]

There is also a reason that there are dozer blade equipped tanks. It wasn't normal to risk the damage to the tank to push something out of the way or go through buildings.

[Georgie]

There was a thread on that subject some time ago (try searching) and if I remember correctly, the reasoning was something like this: Yes, a Tiger should be able to push a truck out the way. But should it be able to push a Stug out of the way? And should a PSW 222 be able to push the truck? - and so on.

In short, I think the answer is, that it would be too complicated to model all the different push dos and don´ts - relative to the weight/power of each individual type of vehicle.

I remember that in CM1 tanks were able to push destroyed vehicles out of the way but I never questioned whether or not it was realistic. I remember that tanks could push tanks and that it was handy.

[sburke]

I think we have all seen one too many movie of a tank driving over a jeep, or just shoving it's way past a roadblock. Losing a track is serious business in the middle of a battle and not something to risk lightly. Hell I avoid fences and walls just to optimize the odds that my tank won't suddenly be immobilized by a glancing hit just because it has already acquired damage to take a short cut.

[Hilts]

I played a scenario that required the use of a section of road by my tanks but a destroyed truck was in the way. My tanks had to thread their way around the destroyed truck through out the entire scenario. It would be more fun and realistic to just be able to push the truck aside.

I presume it was a friendly truck. I have noticed that destroyed friendly vehicles block the road but you can drive straight through a destroyed enemy vehicle like a hot knife going through butter. I assume this is allowed, to stop the enemy from deliberately blocking the road but it doesn't seem very realistic......

[Georgie]

I presume it was a friendly truck. I have noticed that destroyed friendly vehicles block the road but you can drive straight through a destroyed enemy vehicle like a hot knife going through butter. I assume this is allowed, to stop the enemy from deliberately blocking the road but it doesn't seem very realistic......

Thanks Hilts, I didn't know that. Will give it a try.

[Amizaur]

I guess it would be risky to try to push another tank. They would rather try to put some tow cables on it and drag it to the side, or use a bulldozer.

But a truck or other non-armoured - "soft" - vehicle, should have little chance damaging a tank/track, so - if there was no other way, it wasn't under fire and the whole assault was stopped or slowed down - I think they would push it away with a tank, in worst case they are risking damaging a track (not being under fire) but the risk isn't great.

A stopped assault (waiting for bulldozer) is worse than a single non-combat damaged tank. And the tanks may well become bogged trying to maneuver around the blockade. So... whatever.

Speaking about all the combinations of "should be able to push"/"shouldn't be able to push" - I think SOMETIMES the problems presented are little overblown...

Just a limit of mass ratio of pusher/pushed that - when reached - would make pushing impossible, would do the trick. Better yet - a formula that would make the pushing speed gradually slower when the mass ratio is closing to the limit and in effect would made the pushing impossible when the mass ratio limit is reached - the "pushing speed" would drop to zero. Drop in a highly increased chance of track damage during pushing - and we are done.

[JonS]

But a truck or other non-armoured - "soft" - vehicle, should have little chance damaging a tank/track

'Soft' vehicles have lots of un-soft bits. Like the engine, wheels, gearbox, drivetrain, chassis, miscellaneous rods and bars, etc. Even sheet metal could make a mess of tracks.

A stopped assault (waiting for bulldozer) is worse than a single non-combat damaged tank.

That depends. Stopping to wait for the goons to show up with their wrecker, and having a brew while someone else carries on the fight doesn't sound all that bad.

I think SOMETIMES the problems presented are little overblown...

EVERYthing around here is overblown, especially if it isn't in the game.

Just a limit of mass ratio of pusher/pushed that - when reached - would make pushing impossible, would do the trick.

Can a Tiger push a Stuart? Probably. But can it push it sideways? What if it's burning?

[womble]

Can a Tiger push a Stuart? Probably. But can it push it sideways? What if it's burning?

Did the driver remember to put it in Park and set the parking brake before they bailed/roasted?

[JonS]

Did the driver remember to put it in Park and set the parking brake before they bailed/roasted?

I realise that's a joke, but it's also a valid point. Pushing something that's in gear is a lot harder than something in neutral. If the drive train or running gear are wrecked life becomes difficult too.

[Amizaur]

Tiger can push - even sideways - everything that weights substantially less than the Tiger itself. Of course it depends on the surface (like Tiger on a stone brick road, and pushed vehicle in soft ground) but generally the traction given by tracks is so good, it can push almost as much as it weights itself. Generally. Seen that (not in case of tanks, but just large machines, wheeled and tracked ones).

[JonS]

Ok, I'm just going to ignore that rambling stream-of-consciousness.

[nik mond]

Guys I think this should pretty much settle the argument.

[dieseltaylor]

Some specious arguments being put up as it was a destroyed truck. And in the event of a sunken narrow road with bocage either side a overly effective device.

Surely the idea is you push one end or other to make it parellel on the road allowing passage. Ultimately putting a few more HE shells in should reduce it to manageable proportions for driving over if the road is too narrow for anything else.

I have not carried out any tests to see what can be down - yet : 0

pushing is not that hard

[Mord]

Could make it basic...give everything a number rating. Say 1 to 5...a 5 can push everything lower than it...4,3,2,1...A 1 can't push anything. However, having been around these boards I know something that basic will be, well, too basic!

As for the driving through a dead enemy vehicle...I'd rather them not allow that...even if we can't push it out of the way.

Mord.

[Ranger33]

Just for reference For soft vehicles, it isn't really a question of pushing, a Tiger wouldn't even notice that a Jeep was in the road. "What was that? A molehill?"

[JonS]

Some specious arguments being put up as it was a destroyed truck.

Oh, it was destroyed? Well that makes ... practically no difference whatsoever. If anything, a destroyed vehicle is going to be harder to move than a not-destroyed one.

This I can push by hand (straight line, flat-ish road):

This I cannot push by hand:

[LongLeftFlank]

I think this is just fine just as is, given how the game models vehicle movement; the wrecks don't block movement, they slow it. If BFC is going to tweak something, I'd rather see vehicles able to squeeze slowly through half square (4m) sized gaps in walls and hedges. At present, they simply refuse.

[sburke]

Guys I think this should pretty much settle the argument.

It also resolves the uber tank crew issue, I didn't realize it was Telly Savalas!! Now it makes sense!

[sburke]

I think this is just fine just as is, given how the game models vehicle movement; the wrecks don't block movement, they slow it. If BFC is going to tweak something, I'd rather see vehicles able to squeeze slowly through half square (4m) sized gaps in walls and hedges. At present, they simply refuse.

Yeah I'd like that about now too, only can we have it in CMSF first..like now?