togi Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 I know that paratroopers had been used for shock attack effects at WWII widely, or limited regional attack especially for capturing bridges and leading the way for main attack. But in this game can't not be used with real approach , only melee units as ordinary infantry. Why concept can't be changed? My proposal is especially for campaigns and big maps, paratoopers has to be used with a call like artillery used already in the game but with delays off course.. Company or batallion commander can be deliver an order like artillery call with a delay, troops can enter the map from signalled area, there is no need flying parachute effects, but limited areas can be ordered At the reverse side aerial defence must be needed. Any thoughts on that? Regards 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatmasta Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 No such paradrops were ever made in tactical situations. They were dropped in large formations (and usually scattered in a very large area) so their use in limited tactical situations would not be realistic. Some small scale commando raids were done, but never during the ongoing battle. In SF I have played several scenarios/campaign battles where reinforcements appear to different areas in the map to portray chopper landings. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 The only drops happened during the wee hours of 6th June. For the rest of the Normandy campaign, they fought the rest of it as foot infantry (although there was an abortive plan to use paras to break the stalemate). And for Germans it was out of the question anyway. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wombat_of_war Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 it would need a whole different level added to the game, a strategic layer. which is something come to think about it would be good but still thats a heck of a lot of map creation for a large battle. maybe a mix of something like highway to the reich (great game by the way) and cmbn for the tactical level. my mind does boggle about how many battles, etc something like that would involve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sakai007 Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 Steel Panthers does this to a certain degree. Personally, I am of the thought that SP is build for a slightly higher level of forces to command then CM. A full company of paras doesn't seem to take up the same room on the map as one in CMBN does. They did have all these things, firing from the ground, sticks being scattered due to wind, enemy fire, bad luck, green pilots, etc. Makes for an interesting turn replay, thats for sure. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nik mond Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 There were some precision paradrops on a small scale, but they were not adhoc and took much time and preparation such as the Bruneval Raid commanded by Capt John Frost or one of Otto Skorzeny's missions. There were no standby paratrooper waiting for call-in. Perhaps simulating the delivery or paratroopers landing all over the drop zone would be interesting during a fire fight, or a planned mission, but not being summoned like artillery. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 Nik has it right. Paradrops needed days to prepare, so on-call is out of the question. It would be interesting to model the arrival of a pre-planned drop though. That was done in the CM1 engine by having reinforcements arrive on various parts of the map and not only at edges, but I don't know if that is still possible in CM2. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boche Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 It is possible but all units would drop minimum as a squad and always in the same place. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisND Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 It is possible but all units would drop minimum as a squad and always in the same place. Not true, you can split the squads in the editor. They would however, always be in the same place. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 They would however, always be in the same place. So you can't have multiple entry zones? Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisND Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 So you can't have multiple entry zones? Michael Of course you can have the entire force appear in wildly different locations, but the same squad will always enter as a reinforcement in the same place. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 And having them enter even as teams of 3-4 men together, all in good shape and with their weapons and ammo, is wildly optimistic. In reality the sticks found themselves scattered all around, with some getting stuck in trees, some splashing down in marshes and flooded rivers, only having a little time to cut themselves free and get on shore lest they drown. It would take hours to form up anything other than loose teams or mobs of men found by an officer and ordered to follow. It's not something that a tactical wargame can simulate. With glider infantry you at least had everyone coming down together, with all of their equipment. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 And having them enter even as teams of 3-4 men together, all in good shape and with their weapons and ammo, is wildly optimistic. In reality the sticks found themselves scattered all around, with some getting stuck in trees, some splashing down in marshes and flooded rivers, only having a little time to cut themselves free and get on shore lest they drown. It would take hours to form up anything other than loose teams or mobs of men found by an officer and ordered to follow. True enough in the current game. By the time we get to Market-Garden that should be less of a problem. With glider infantry you at least had everyone coming down together, with all of their equipment. And frequently dying together when the glider crashed, as quite a few of them did on D-Day. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uzi Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 After the losses at Crete, and despite their victory there, the germans decided never to drop paratroopers again. The allies, on the other hand, were so impressed that they began to take their paratroopers more seriously, bolstered numbers and used them again and again in massive jumps. No fallschirmjager jumped in Normandy. They were used as infantry only. In fact they hadn't jumped for a few years by then. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Perhaps not so much "decided never to drop again", as "never decided to drop again". They still kept the readiness to use the FJ in the intended way, but understood that it would have to be a damn good reason to do it again, and no such reason ever came up. They even ended giving new FJ cannonfodder actual para training in 1944, so after that even if it had suddenly been possible and desirable to drop them, only the old hands would have known how it's done. Can you imagine what it would be like to be dropped into war zone with the only instructions being "pull the cord and bend your knees"? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Well, they... they... were lucky to HAVE chutes. The Russians dropped men without parachutes at all! IIRC they found that they suffered fewer casualties dropping men into snow drifts without chutes than with... until the Germans started painting hard surfaces to look like snow drifts... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatmasta Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 IIRC they found that they suffered fewer casualties dropping men into snow drifts without chutes than with... until the Germans started painting hard surfaces to look like snow drifts... I'm pretty sure that it's just a myth. I first heard that story in the army from my platoon leader and it's popped up every now and then but I have never found any solid proof of that. Do you have any reliable sources on that? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 I believe it is true... and like most posters on these forums, that's good enuff for us... Merry Xmas btw! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Belenko Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 I believe it is true... and like most posters on these forums, that's good enuff for us... Merry Xmas btw! 12% of the people believe Elvis still lives too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 I'm pretty sure that it's just a myth. I first heard that story in the army from my platoon leader and it's popped up every now and then but I have never found any solid proof of that. Do you have any reliable sources on that? What part is a myth? I've read about the part of dropping into snowdrifts in what I considered a reliable source, but the part about painting hard surfaces I never heard of before and tend to doubt. In the version I heard, it would have been unnecessary anyway as the snow tended to have hard objects like trees, sheds, fenceposts, etc. buried in it that would not have been pleasant to discover by crashing into them. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 After the losses at Crete, and despite their victory there, the germans decided never to drop paratroopers again. 5 minutes on Wikipedia should be sufficient to disabuse you of that notion. The Germans conducted airborne ops - after Crete - in North Africa (albeit using Storch, rather than silk), Sicily (silk), Yugoslavia (silk), Leros (silk), and Belgium (silk). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
togi Posted December 26, 2011 Author Share Posted December 26, 2011 BTW , while opening this topic, I mean the usage of this idea at QB games. Especially fictional campaigns (ofcourse campaigns can't have the property of user arangement now may be at future - Quick Campaign).. Paratroopers can be used either ordinary infantry unit with low cost or dropped any restiricted area with high cost. Also can be used at big point - scenarios, but with high cost because of suprise effect. For example one company dropped would have double cost with regards to usage as ordinary infantry Regards 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wombat_of_war Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 there was even some talk of dropping FJ in normandy as well but it never went anywhere, with all that aircover not to mention the way the allies were pushing it would be suicide 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poesel Posted December 27, 2011 Share Posted December 27, 2011 ...The Germans conducted airborne ops - after Crete - in North Africa (albeit using Storch, rather than silk), Sicily (silk), Yugoslavia (silk), Leros (silk), and Belgium (silk). What do you mean by 'Storch'? Thats german for stork - and the paras they bring are usually a bit too young... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted December 27, 2011 Share Posted December 27, 2011 What do you mean by 'Storch'? Thats german for stork - and the paras they bring are usually a bit too young... It is also the name of an airplane, a rather famous one in fact: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fieseler_Fi_156 Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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