Spotting to easy...

[Tread Head]

OK, I just think that the programmers need to tweak the spotting likelihoods. Things are just to likely to spot infantry and ATGs in cover. Especially buttoned tanks.

EX: In the game I playing now, a buttoned stug was able to see my 50mm ATG on the opposite side of the map, engage it, and destroy it before he could even get a shoot off. Not to mention that the ATG was out of the stugs frontal cover arc. The ATG was moving its covered arc, but that alone should not of been enough movement for the stug to see it...

Ex: A Buttoned Sherman is flying down a road between to hedges... it drives by a hiding inf. team. SO, the Sherman stops, rotated and point engages them... No way... sorry.

I love the game, but add these to my list of factors that can be fixed.

[YankeeDog]

May I suggest trying to snag a savegame file next time you experience something like this so we can all take a loo, and a beta tester can do more detailed analysis, if necessary.

Most of the time, my experience is that it's very hard for buttoned AFVs to spot infantry and guns in good hiding positions. Just the other day, I had a running engagement between my Panther and a 57mm ATG in which the ATG got at least a half dozen shots off at the Panther before the tank finally spotted the gun. Given how difficult the gun was to spot, I had drawn the conclusion that the gun must be on a distant ridgeline. So I was very surprised when it turned out to be only about 300m away from the tank. I think the tank did sustain some optics damage eventually, but not for the first several shots.

And I've had other experiences like this, too. So I don't think it's true that AFV's are *always* unrealistically good at spotting.

But every once in a while, I do have an incident like the ones you mention where an AFV seems oddly prescient about the location of an enemy unit. Could be a situation specific bug of some kind, or there could be some sort of justification. Hard to say without all the facts and a save game file... conditional bugs are difficult to squash.

[Pak40]

Tread Head, I setup a simple test scenario, you can do the same. I made a tall bocage lane with a road down the middle. I put two german squads on either side behind the bocage in hide mode. The squads were staggered about 30-40 yards apart. I made a simple AI plan for the Sherman to go down to the END of the road with a QUICK order. BTW, run the test in the SCENARIO AUTHOR TEST mode. This allows you to see all enemy units and, more importantly, click on them to see their current movement orders.

I ran this test only twice because I know what happened in your case. The order I plotted for the tank was to go to the end of the road. However, the AI doesn't order a direct move to the end of the road. Instead, it randomly plots 1 movement somewhere along the rout. Since I ran the test in WEGO this leave the tank to sit in the lane between the bocage once it completes it's order. It has to wait until the next order phase to plot the next order that will eventually bring it to end of the lane. I know this because in the SCENARIO AUTHOR TEST mode you can click on the Sherman and see it's current move order even during playback. So, I actually knew the tank would stop halfway down the lane before it got there.

TEST 1: Sherman movement order was plotted right in front of the first squad. When it stopped, there was about a three or four second pause until my squad opened fire on the tank, killing the unbuttoned commander.

TEST 2: This time the Sherman move order was plotted between my two squads. It passed the first squad without spotting it and then stopped until the end of the turn. On the second turn the AI gave the tank a new order to the end of the lane. It passed the second squad without spotting it.

So, undoubtedly what happened in your case, is that the AI just happened to plot a move order for your tank right in front of your squad. It didn't stop because it actually saw your squad.

[Ranger33]

I'm sure there is some tweaking to be done here, but it could just be another case of confirmation bias (with the occasional outlier). The hundreds (thousands? who knows) of times the spotting is right in a given scenario, you don't notice it, but the one time the other guy gets lucky, you zero in. When I say "you" here, I mean anyone. For the most part, this portion of the game goes about how I would expect it to. I would say the more aggravating thing is when you have units looking right at the enemy and they can't spot them.

I imagine BFC would slowly descend into madness before they ever got this perfected.

[weapon2010]

Super spotting is not a case of getting lucky.The very few cases Ive seen are impossible.We are talking about spotting through multiple hedgerows and woods over long distances.

[slysniper]

I have not done any testing on it, but I think movement might be the big factor here.

If a unit moves at all, spotting increases plenty. Some test could be run to prove this.

The AT gun shifting can be a big give away, maybe too much compared to RL, but I am sure that is what is doing it.

Tanks spoting infantry as they roll by ( if you watch closely, normally it takes someone lifting a head or someone crawling a little. If the guys stay in cover, do not move and hide, you can get away with a lot.

personnally I think the new game is much better at keeping men hidden and letting the enemy miss seeing them, is it perfect. No and it should not be. There should be a risk at trying to hide and let the enemy pass. If caught, you should suffer because having your face in the dirt does not normally lead to getting the jump on the enemy.

[Tread Head]

So, undoubtedly what happened in your case, is that the AI just happened to plot a move order for your tank right in front of your squad. It didn't stop because it actually saw your squad.

Sorry, it was in a WEGO game and in the middle of the move order.

[Tread Head]

I don't post when I see a random crazy incident but only if I see a pattern.... buttoned tanks have WAY to high a chance at spotting inf/ATG.

I was a tanker (M1A1-M1A2) and even in these modern tanks, we were BLIND to infantry unless the TC or the loader had his head popped out.

[Pak40]

Sorry, it was in a WEGO game and in the middle of the move order.

My point is that the move order just happened to end right in front of your squad. Then it spotted the infantry after that. It didn't spot your infantry on the move and then stop.

[Tread Head]

My point is that the move order just happened to end right in front of your squad. Then it spotted the infantry after that. It didn't spot your infantry on the move and then stop.

Yes it did.

[Pak40]

by your description, the tank did not see the infantry until it stopped.

"it drives by a hiding inf. team. SO, the Sherman stops, rotated and point engages them"

Well, I've done the testing and based on your description of what happened, I think it's just coincidence. If you do some testing yourself and see that Tanks are spotting hidden infantry behind hedgrows while moving then present us the evidence.

[aka_tom_w]

This is complimentary thread to other spotting thread.

[LukeFF]

This is complimentary thread to other spotting thread.

Yes, and...?

[phil stanbridge]

I've had a completely different experience. Although I can identify units too easily I cannot for the life in me spot ATG's until it's too late

[GreenAsJade]

Sorry, it was in a WEGO game and in the middle of the move order.

If it's a WEGO game, then you already have the save file with the exact movie that is needed: it is the last turn that your oppo sent to you. Just pass this on, with the password, to the beta testers, they can take a look.

GaJ

[LJFHutch]

If it's a WEGO game, then you already have the save file with the exact movie that is needed: it is the last turn that your oppo sent to you. Just pass this on, with the password, to the beta testers, they can take a look.

GaJ

Opponent: 'Nah just post it up here, we can all verify it then ...'

[Apache]

Just had a spotting oddity here too. Three Stugs, buttoned, side on. US bazooka team approaches them in slow mode from woods, just nearing point where they will get LOS. Spotted immediately by Stugs who turn and kill. I know German optics were good but?? Quick draw Stugs, sharp as a button crews with outstanding eyesight. Lethal stuff

[Bertram]

There are in my opinion some bugs, some oddities and some frustrating issues with the spotting.

The bugs are (in my opinion) mostly tank related. I have had a M8, opened up, looking to a road corner where I expected a Panther to arrive (I wanted them to reverse out of sight the moment they spotted the enemy tank). The Panther managed to sneak around the corner (which was about 50 meters away), line up a shot, and kill the M8, before one of the crew managed to spot them. I also have had tanks sittng 50 meters, in the middle of a straight road, head on where one side could spot the other for a full turn, before thye were spot in turn (the spotting tank was an M3, and it decided to enage the Panther with their 37 mm. They got off 4 or 5 shots before the Panther spotted them and replied). I have had infantry unable to spot a tank that was firing on them, even though thye had clear los to the spot the enemy was sitting, and there were 2 squads and a HQ unit theoretically looking for it. I expect that the testers and programmers are looking into this, and improve it when possible.

Then there are the oddities. Not necesairely wrong, but sometimes a bit surprising. One of those is the easy of spotting enemy infantry in buildings. I have had a FO in a bulding calling in an artillery strike on some infantry a few hunderd meters away, only to have all infantry in los responding by immediatly spotting him and firing on him. This seems odd, as the FO certrainly does not have to expose himself to spot.

Same goes for infantry not hidden in woods. If I give them a hide command, they are difficult to spot. If I unhide them, but keep them in place, they are often spotted immediatly, even from considerable distance. I just mean them to lift their head a bit, not to have them jump up and down, waving their arms.... Mostly this seems to me due to the game having just one "state" for infantry at rest (that is, not hiding, not moving). In real life there is a big difference in the behaviour of a FO trying to spot an enemy while sitting in cover, a squad sitting in ambush or a sentry, versus a bunch of troops just having a cup of tea or resting before getting orders. In CMBN these are all "not moving" , and are spotted the same way.

This is also why scenario's like those where you have to recon, and sneak up a bunch of enemies don't work really well. This might be possible in real life, when you avoid the sentries, because not all troops can be alert at all times. In CMBN in contrast, all troops are at the same alert level all time, and are spotting with the same intensity (unless moving). Thereore the recon troops, which are moving, hardy ever spot the stationary troops before they spot them. For most battles this does not matter - once the bullets start to fly you would expect all troops to be alert. For ambushes and sneak attacks you would need some alertness level implemented to make those scenario's really realistic.

I can live with these effects. CMBN isnt made for commando raids, the occasional suprise when my concealed troops are spotted I can blame it on bad luck, and I expect some tweaking to be done in the coming releases.

Finally there are some frustrating effects from the current implentation of spotting. One of those is the difficulty of having a sqad positioned so that they can look out of a wooded area, without leaving the woods. Setting them up that way is doable - it is just placing them, using the "target' tool to see if they can look out of the woods, and repeat till you get it right. Once in the game it is very difficult though. Especially in WGO mode, you have to give a move command a few feet ahead, wait till the next run, see if your men can already look out of the woods, give a new command, wait a minute, and repeat. It take sso long, that I often just give a hunt command - which only works if the enemy is sogood to start shooting when my men are spotted, otherwise you end up in front of the woods. Same goes for corners of buildings, hedges and bacage, etc. Often I wind up just short of the place where I have the los I want, other times my men go well past this point. This is frustratng of course, because in real life, it is a pretty easy command (advance till you can see xxx), which needs lots of micromanagement in game, and even then has results that vary wildly.

In some sense these effects of the engine are worse then the previous category - the frustration that some simmple (in real life) things are difficult to do breaks the immersion. It makes it certainly less enjoyable for me. On the othe hand, this goes for both sides, so as a game against an human opponent, it isnt a deal breaker.

[Dadekster88]

I don't post when I see a random crazy incident but only if I see a pattern.... buttoned tanks have WAY to high a chance at spotting inf/ATG.

I was a tanker (M1A1-M1A2) and even in these modern tanks, we were BLIND to infantry unless the TC or the loader had his head popped out.

Try being a M551 driver I hated you guys driving around in what I felt was a souped up luxury sports car/tank.

As far as spotting goes I seem to have ambivalent feelings towards the way it seems modeled. On one hand as Tread Head says spotting from inside a AFV is next to nothing and from personal experience I agree, so when I see a buttoned vehicle drawn like a magnet to something I feel should be pretty undetectable I get a bit peeved but then I tell myself it's a game and it's not perfect and who knows what happened realistically in the game? Maybe one of your men sneezed real loud or stepped on a twig? How that's heard over the sound of engines is beyond me but I make it work. The good thing is for the most part it doesn't happen enough that it's an issue. These ordeals reminds me of a qoute actually-

"As combat veterans and high commanders know, logic is often a stranger in wartime" William B. Breuer