Maquisard manqué

The number of people needing to be killed and dispersed to permanently crush an entire good-sized nation is astonishing; I don't know enough about history to know how often it has successfully been done.  The Carthaginians come to mind, and that worked partly because the dispersed part of the population could not communicate, unlike today.
The military science fiction writer David Drake, who knows not much about science and technology but a lot about history, and who had personal combat experience in Vietnam, identified the difficulty of oppression in his first book "Hammers' Slammers": "And the ones we kill - doesn't every one a' them have a wife or a brother or a nephew", etc.  Also an instructive dialogue in "Cross the Stars" (a re-imagining of the Odyssey) on pages 247 / 248 (original edition) about how much killing is needed to to successfully oppress a population with force. 
I'm sure there are more conventional commentators on this matter, but Drake's thoughts are accurate.

In short I agree, the Marshall Plan was better.  Things like the Morgenthau Plan, even if they work, which is clearly seldom, can only leave a long-term brutalizing stain on the people who enact them, regardless of how righteous it seems at the time.

Not to take away from the well-earned fierce feelings and expressions of Ukrainians experiencing their homes, friends and family being savaged in real time.  In the words of one of my Ukrainian friends, "I am all out of tears" - and that was only a week in.  Now, as we see building evidence of not just one-off but systemic atrocity, it is much worse.
 

Seeing what you’re seeing it’s understandable you’d question the basic humanity of the perpetrators. Every rational observer does but for you it’s even more. I get that.
I’ve also given thought to the comments here to let it go given what you’re country is going through. I disagree. What’s the point of claiming democratic values of respect for humanity and the rule of law if you don’t try to respect them?
But frankly, I’m pretty sceptical about the merit of denying the basic humanity of people. If you don’t do that, it’s got to be pretty hard to get a democracy to work as anything other than a tyrannical majority.
Zelensky is popular because he keeps aloof of Putins’ quagmire of racist crap and promises the rule of law. I’d encourage you to heed his example. It’ll go further with the democratic centre of the EU and US. 
You’re wrong about denazification. People don’t want to know things that are hard to accept. Thats whole “big lie” thing. Ask a German, but the majority of Germans in ww2 ignored or allowed things to happen because the price to them personally was too high to question it. Denazification was about showing to ordinary Germans what was done in their name. Showing them the basic humanity of their victims.
I’m now done.

Kraze. I know it doesn’t suit your own apparently racist credo but read a bit more history please. Or stop posting your racist crap about all Russians being evil. I am not sure why it’s getting a  free pass here.
War criminals are war criminals and the Russian army and govt is clearly barbaric. It’s treatment of Ukrainian civilians is inhuman, unlawful and evil. It’s assault on Ukraine is equally illegal and morally wrong. The Russian public, like the post ww2 Germans, will have to face a reckoning with what they knew or didn’t want to. But if you think of them all as fundamentally evil, you’re just playing to Putin’s fascist crap about races and civilisational conflict. You start to sound like your own little putin. You prevent the redemption by Russians of their own country and make a repeat of this even more likely. You make Russian claims about Ukrainian nazis seem that little bit closer to the truth.
Revolutions are not easy. They are usually not a single event and last a long period, with all sorts of interference from outside forces. They also continue being contested long after and between the actual fighting. History looks a lot simpler from far away. The EU’s revolutions that you suggest were done rather simply took hundreds of years. The US didn’t do it by itself either! France bankrupted itself supporting the US revolution. 
 

Sorry, missed your plea. I agree - nationality is a construct, shouldn’t mean much.
I similarly object to reading bile throughout the thread. I mostly lurk for the actual news but sometimes the non military commentary just gets too much.

Er, thanks, this could constitute something I can agree on with Kraze.
I know that’s how this looks in the west but you must be missing a) the complex history and demographics that make up ethnicity b) the posts here about x people are all y.
Calling all Eastern Europeans Slavs is not accurate.

Seeing what you’re seeing it’s understandable you’d question the basic humanity of the perpetrators. Every rational observer does but for you it’s even more. I get that.
I’ve also given thought to the comments here to let it go given what you’re country is going through. I disagree. What’s the point of claiming democratic values of respect for humanity and the rule of law if you don’t try to respect them?
But frankly, I’m pretty sceptical about the merit of denying the basic humanity of people. If you don’t do that, it’s got to be pretty hard to get a democracy to work as anything other than a tyrannical majority.
Zelensky is popular because he keeps aloof of Putins’ quagmire of racist crap and promises the rule of law. I’d encourage you to heed his example. It’ll go further with the democratic centre of the EU and US. 
You’re wrong about denazification. People don’t want to know things that are hard to accept. Thats whole “big lie” thing. Ask a German, but the majority of Germans in ww2 ignored or allowed things to happen because the price to them personally was too high to question it. Denazification was about showing to ordinary Germans what was done in their name. Showing them the basic humanity of their victims.
I’m now done.

Fair enough. That’s certainly what’s weird about this social media war stream.
But tell me, when the dust settles, is the racism either way going to be right or ok?
No.
So why is it ok now?

Gents please pay heed and take all this off line for heaven sake.

Seeing what you’re seeing it’s understandable you’d question the basic humanity of the perpetrators. Every rational observer does but for you it’s even more. I get that.
I’ve also given thought to the comments here to let it go given what you’re country is going through. I disagree. What’s the point of claiming democratic values of respect for humanity and the rule of law if you don’t try to respect them?
But frankly, I’m pretty sceptical about the merit of denying the basic humanity of people. If you don’t do that, it’s got to be pretty hard to get a democracy to work as anything other than a tyrannical majority.
Zelensky is popular because he keeps aloof of Putins’ quagmire of racist crap and promises the rule of law. I’d encourage you to heed his example. It’ll go further with the democratic centre of the EU and US. 
You’re wrong about denazification. People don’t want to know things that are hard to accept. Thats whole “big lie” thing. Ask a German, but the majority of Germans in ww2 ignored or allowed things to happen because the price to them personally was too high to question it. Denazification was about showing to ordinary Germans what was done in their name. Showing them the basic humanity of their victims.
I’m now done.

But that’s not what you keep typing. You just keep referring to Russians as an entire group. I can only take what you write at face value.
The whole point of denazification is that it opens peoples eyes, because you accept that people are capable of much better than they’ve shown. Shame on them. A million times over. Because they should know better.
But don’t degrade yourself by not respecting their fundamental humanity. Otherwise you don’t look much better than them.
 

The events in Ukraine are going to add some more fuel to the fire regarding the highly controversial reorganization of the US Marine Corps. The current commandant has eliminated all tanks, reduced artillery, helicopters and fixed wing assets to focus on guided missiles, drones, long range anti-ship missiles batteries and long-range unmanned surface vessels that has sensors and weapons that allow for pinpoint bombardment. They are also buying unmanned boats loaded with Kamikaze drones.
The reason for the re-org is the likely adversary China is a Pacific oriented theater that involves vast distances and the need for light highly deployable forces. Many of the potential hot spots are small atolls and shoals. Tanks are too cumbersome and heavy to land on these atolls and the risk of losing them to handheld anti-tank weapons is too great is the argument.
Artillery is also limited by the fact many of the tiny islands are so small they can't be used from a safe distance away from enemy fire and may not be able to use indirect fire at close range. While not totally useless its argued that tanks and artillery "are of less value than the things we need the most" and with a limited budget choices have to be made.
   
This has drawn the ire of just about every past commandant and they have been engaging in a PR campaign to slow or stop the re-org and are now lobbying congress. The argument here is the force structure is too tailored for a potential fight with China and would be ineffective elsewhere. There have been arguments that eliminating tanks makes the new force structure vulnerable in a fight with a armored heavy opponent.
The events in Ukraine where light infantry armed with guided missiles are decimating tanks and IFV's, pretty much invalidates the infantry is vulnerable to armored formations even when taking into account the Russians lack of finesse.
The argument that the new force structure would not be useful in a theater like Europe is also looking sketchy. A force structure like the new Marine Corps one would be highly effective in the southern coastal region of Ukraine. Anti-ship missile batteries would make any sort of Russian amphibious invasion or ship resupply of land forces a very risky proposition. Long range unmanned surface vessels with precision guns and guided missiles and drones would also be very effective.
Norway another area the marines currently train in would be another region where the new force structure would be very effective as would Sweden and Finland if it ever came down to it.
I still believe tanks are highly effective when properly used, but they are expensive to acquire, expensive to maintain and they will definitely need APS and more APS systems need to be developed. All of this will require money, lots of it and they are not easily deployable as their weight is already approaching the limits of practicality and adding on more stuff to protect them will only add to the weight problem.
In the past few decades global populations have been trending away from rural areas into urban areas. Over 90% of global commerce moves on the sea, so it follows that urban areas located near the water is where the centers of government and economic power lie.
A light infantry centric force with precision weapons, drones, unmanned surface vessels and anti-ship missiles makes a lot of sense. He may be highly controversial but General Berger is beginning to look very visionary.
 

Sorry, missed your plea. I agree - nationality is a construct, shouldn’t mean much.
I similarly object to reading bile throughout the thread. I mostly lurk for the actual news but sometimes the non military commentary just gets too much.

Sorry, missed your plea. I agree - nationality is a construct, shouldn’t mean much.
I similarly object to reading bile throughout the thread. I mostly lurk for the actual news but sometimes the non military commentary just gets too much.

No, you are a racist because you say all Russians are the same, that they are somehow intrinsically less than Ukrainians or others you deem “ok” in some way.

Kraze. I know it doesn’t suit your own apparently racist credo but read a bit more history please. Or stop posting your racist crap about all Russians being evil. I am not sure why it’s getting a  free pass here.
War criminals are war criminals and the Russian army and govt is clearly barbaric. It’s treatment of Ukrainian civilians is inhuman, unlawful and evil. It’s assault on Ukraine is equally illegal and morally wrong. The Russian public, like the post ww2 Germans, will have to face a reckoning with what they knew or didn’t want to. But if you think of them all as fundamentally evil, you’re just playing to Putin’s fascist crap about races and civilisational conflict. You start to sound like your own little putin. You prevent the redemption by Russians of their own country and make a repeat of this even more likely. You make Russian claims about Ukrainian nazis seem that little bit closer to the truth.
Revolutions are not easy. They are usually not a single event and last a long period, with all sorts of interference from outside forces. They also continue being contested long after and between the actual fighting. History looks a lot simpler from far away. The EU’s revolutions that you suggest were done rather simply took hundreds of years. The US didn’t do it by itself either! France bankrupted itself supporting the US revolution. 
 

Kraze. I know it doesn’t suit your own apparently racist credo but read a bit more history please. Or stop posting your racist crap about all Russians being evil. I am not sure why it’s getting a  free pass here.
War criminals are war criminals and the Russian army and govt is clearly barbaric. It’s treatment of Ukrainian civilians is inhuman, unlawful and evil. It’s assault on Ukraine is equally illegal and morally wrong. The Russian public, like the post ww2 Germans, will have to face a reckoning with what they knew or didn’t want to. But if you think of them all as fundamentally evil, you’re just playing to Putin’s fascist crap about races and civilisational conflict. You start to sound like your own little putin. You prevent the redemption by Russians of their own country and make a repeat of this even more likely. You make Russian claims about Ukrainian nazis seem that little bit closer to the truth.
Revolutions are not easy. They are usually not a single event and last a long period, with all sorts of interference from outside forces. They also continue being contested long after and between the actual fighting. History looks a lot simpler from far away. The EU’s revolutions that you suggest were done rather simply took hundreds of years. The US didn’t do it by itself either! France bankrupted itself supporting the US revolution. 
 

Kraze. I know it doesn’t suit your own apparently racist credo but read a bit more history please. Or stop posting your racist crap about all Russians being evil. I am not sure why it’s getting a  free pass here.
War criminals are war criminals and the Russian army and govt is clearly barbaric. It’s treatment of Ukrainian civilians is inhuman, unlawful and evil. It’s assault on Ukraine is equally illegal and morally wrong. The Russian public, like the post ww2 Germans, will have to face a reckoning with what they knew or didn’t want to. But if you think of them all as fundamentally evil, you’re just playing to Putin’s fascist crap about races and civilisational conflict. You start to sound like your own little putin. You prevent the redemption by Russians of their own country and make a repeat of this even more likely. You make Russian claims about Ukrainian nazis seem that little bit closer to the truth.
Revolutions are not easy. They are usually not a single event and last a long period, with all sorts of interference from outside forces. They also continue being contested long after and between the actual fighting. History looks a lot simpler from far away. The EU’s revolutions that you suggest were done rather simply took hundreds of years. The US didn’t do it by itself either! France bankrupted itself supporting the US revolution. 
 

Sorry, missed your plea. I agree - nationality is a construct, shouldn’t mean much.
I similarly object to reading bile throughout the thread. I mostly lurk for the actual news but sometimes the non military commentary just gets too much.

Reportedly Russian troops, which withdrew to Belarus, established there a market for selling and exchanging to each other with looted things. They carried all these goods by trucks. One of this truck, couldn't reach the border. Its seen, it carried three washing machines and many other

 

Kraze. I know it doesn’t suit your own apparently racist credo but read a bit more history please. Or stop posting your racist crap about all Russians being evil. I am not sure why it’s getting a  free pass here.
War criminals are war criminals and the Russian army and govt is clearly barbaric. It’s treatment of Ukrainian civilians is inhuman, unlawful and evil. It’s assault on Ukraine is equally illegal and morally wrong. The Russian public, like the post ww2 Germans, will have to face a reckoning with what they knew or didn’t want to. But if you think of them all as fundamentally evil, you’re just playing to Putin’s fascist crap about races and civilisational conflict. You start to sound like your own little putin. You prevent the redemption by Russians of their own country and make a repeat of this even more likely. You make Russian claims about Ukrainian nazis seem that little bit closer to the truth.
Revolutions are not easy. They are usually not a single event and last a long period, with all sorts of interference from outside forces. They also continue being contested long after and between the actual fighting. History looks a lot simpler from far away. The EU’s revolutions that you suggest were done rather simply took hundreds of years. The US didn’t do it by itself either! France bankrupted itself supporting the US revolution. 
 

While I think @LongLeftFlank post was interesting and surely/hopefully >50% chance going forward, I'm not sure I agree with what you write here. I'm sorry to interrupt your George Washington dreams 😉
If Ukraine manages to kick out Russia from it's lands (Crimea another story) and does good on the internal cleansing of kleptocracy and other undesirable stuff, I think it will be able to attract large investments.
Of course the EU will do something (as will US, UK, AUS, etc), they might even do a whole lot but they won't give a blanc cheque or give financial guarantees against Russian aggression (lol that would be really, really, stupid). The EU doesn't have unlimited moneys. So like LLF wrote Ukraine will also need private (for profit) investments. With a decent security lookout those will surely come!
Also the EU isn't a moneypot membership where if you fight hard against Russians, you are allowed to become member and scoop it till the bottom 🤣. And unlike many people in the world seem to think, winning a war against Russia doesn't mean you can enroll in any coalition/union without meeting the requirements. 
EU membership is imo probably in Ukraine's hands IF they manage to achieve all the required preconditions. Fast forward 5-10 years. Personally I hope they manage.
Sorry if I'm being negative but that's just not how the world works. And after reading for the n-th time how Americans (not only you 😉 ) write that Ukraine should be in the EU for fighting against Russia, I felt the need to address it. 

+1 like but I'm out ;-). 
PS Those frogs have been shot, poisoned and prisoned. 

Kraze. I know it doesn’t suit your own apparently racist credo but read a bit more history please. Or stop posting your racist crap about all Russians being evil. I am not sure why it’s getting a  free pass here.
War criminals are war criminals and the Russian army and govt is clearly barbaric. It’s treatment of Ukrainian civilians is inhuman, unlawful and evil. It’s assault on Ukraine is equally illegal and morally wrong. The Russian public, like the post ww2 Germans, will have to face a reckoning with what they knew or didn’t want to. But if you think of them all as fundamentally evil, you’re just playing to Putin’s fascist crap about races and civilisational conflict. You start to sound like your own little putin. You prevent the redemption by Russians of their own country and make a repeat of this even more likely. You make Russian claims about Ukrainian nazis seem that little bit closer to the truth.
Revolutions are not easy. They are usually not a single event and last a long period, with all sorts of interference from outside forces. They also continue being contested long after and between the actual fighting. History looks a lot simpler from far away. The EU’s revolutions that you suggest were done rather simply took hundreds of years. The US didn’t do it by itself either! France bankrupted itself supporting the US revolution. 
 

There, fixed that for you.
Collective responsibility for Putin's excesses is vastly different from asserting that every Russian soldier is a rapist and looter, and every Russian is a zombie who wishes to murder any Ukrainian they can get their hands on. Every. Single. Conflict. Ever. Has brought out the worst in SOME of the combatants. Generalisations can lead to tragedy.

Kraze. I know it doesn’t suit your own apparently racist credo but read a bit more history please. Or stop posting your racist crap about all Russians being evil. I am not sure why it’s getting a  free pass here.
War criminals are war criminals and the Russian army and govt is clearly barbaric. It’s treatment of Ukrainian civilians is inhuman, unlawful and evil. It’s assault on Ukraine is equally illegal and morally wrong. The Russian public, like the post ww2 Germans, will have to face a reckoning with what they knew or didn’t want to. But if you think of them all as fundamentally evil, you’re just playing to Putin’s fascist crap about races and civilisational conflict. You start to sound like your own little putin. You prevent the redemption by Russians of their own country and make a repeat of this even more likely. You make Russian claims about Ukrainian nazis seem that little bit closer to the truth.
Revolutions are not easy. They are usually not a single event and last a long period, with all sorts of interference from outside forces. They also continue being contested long after and between the actual fighting. History looks a lot simpler from far away. The EU’s revolutions that you suggest were done rather simply took hundreds of years. The US didn’t do it by itself either! France bankrupted itself supporting the US revolution.