Josey Wales

I'm going to guess they would stop

I wonder if they'd consider monetizing the TOE?
Want a Tiger? Pay a buck. 
Oh, you want another? Pay another buck.
Keep at it until you collect the entire battalion! Then, you can unleash them on your opponent in a QB.
(Everyone starts with a halftrack and a platoon.)
Just a CMx3 thought...

Or make the ground deform dynamically when the trench is spotted, like a crater is made every time a shell hits the ground.

1. Guys, Pericles is *not* making stuff up; everyone who's played CM has had WTF! moments like this. So no need to jump on him so hard. He's trying to help. OTOH, Ian et al are also trying to help, so do let's keep it civil.
2.  In CMSF, where BLUEFOR is (or should be) casualty-sensitive (to offset their massive FP advantages), losing half a squad to sporadic kamikaze behaviour may mean losing a game on vp. So this matters more than ever.
3.  But it doesn't sound like a straightforward AI 'bug' fix either. The cover-seeking AI has always been a bit of a black box, but clearly:
a. We *do* want unpinned squaddies to get out of a killzone, stat, not go to ground in place by default to get hosed down more.
b. But we also *don't* want them overdoing it by dashing pell mell for the nearest 'safe' place that happens to be 100 yards away across a beaten zone.
4. My personal view (fwiw) is that abstracted hard 'micro' cover seems undermodeled in general, even though that hunch is tough to confirm empirically.
In RL, it's unusual (and a memorable horror, think Omaha) when an infantryman doesn't have anything at all solid within a few paces that he can put between himself and bullets. That's why modern battlefields look 'empty.'  Incoming fire should normally encounter sharply diminishing returns after the first few shots, even in 'open ground'.
By boosting the number of perceived 'refuges' available to pixeljoes, it seems you could then reduce the chances of the TacAI choosing to run for a safe spot far away.

Video 1 looks like the Indirect Fire bug that @HerrTomhas alluded to. The unit takes 1 casualty and suffers about 70% suppression and  drops to the morale state of 'Nervous'. The unit leader is the casualty, but the assistant takes over who also has +1 Leadership. Can a hand grenade cause the Indirect Fire bug?
Video 2  looks like a typical auto evade when troops in the 'Rattled' morale state become Pinned.
I cannot comment on video 3 as I don't have any information on the unit status.
When I see my troops in CM behave in a way different to what I expect, I can typically 'roleplay out' the situation so as to be less dissatisfied with the result. 
It is hard to make that case here in either of the first 2 vids.
In vid 1, the unit does not panic, nor does it suffer from being led by an incompetent. The unit is merely dropped to 'Nervous' and still has a capable leader fronting it up. The unit is also aware of 2 enemy contacts to the north. I would therefore find it difficult to roleplay out the situation that developed and would come to the conclusion that something was wrong with the TacAI.
In vid 2, the unit is Rattled and (probably) Pinned whilst moving. The auto evade kicks in but again, I find it difficult to roleplay out that they would run back into the fire that was coming at them. Again I have to conclude that something here is wrong.
Having said that I have never witnessed a situation in any of my own games that I have not been able to roleplay out, but I've also never witnessed the Indirect Fire bug demonstrated by @IICptMillerII. That's not to deny it exists, just that I've not seen it in a game I've played. I do not have the Shock Force 2 demo.
 
 

Video 1 looks like the Indirect Fire bug that @HerrTomhas alluded to. The unit takes 1 casualty and suffers about 70% suppression and  drops to the morale state of 'Nervous'. The unit leader is the casualty, but the assistant takes over who also has +1 Leadership. Can a hand grenade cause the Indirect Fire bug?
Video 2  looks like a typical auto evade when troops in the 'Rattled' morale state become Pinned.
I cannot comment on video 3 as I don't have any information on the unit status.
When I see my troops in CM behave in a way different to what I expect, I can typically 'roleplay out' the situation so as to be less dissatisfied with the result. 
It is hard to make that case here in either of the first 2 vids.
In vid 1, the unit does not panic, nor does it suffer from being led by an incompetent. The unit is merely dropped to 'Nervous' and still has a capable leader fronting it up. The unit is also aware of 2 enemy contacts to the north. I would therefore find it difficult to roleplay out the situation that developed and would come to the conclusion that something was wrong with the TacAI.
In vid 2, the unit is Rattled and (probably) Pinned whilst moving. The auto evade kicks in but again, I find it difficult to roleplay out that they would run back into the fire that was coming at them. Again I have to conclude that something here is wrong.
Having said that I have never witnessed a situation in any of my own games that I have not been able to roleplay out, but I've also never witnessed the Indirect Fire bug demonstrated by @IICptMillerII. That's not to deny it exists, just that I've not seen it in a game I've played. I do not have the Shock Force 2 demo.
 
 

Video 1 looks like the Indirect Fire bug that @HerrTomhas alluded to. The unit takes 1 casualty and suffers about 70% suppression and  drops to the morale state of 'Nervous'. The unit leader is the casualty, but the assistant takes over who also has +1 Leadership. Can a hand grenade cause the Indirect Fire bug?
Video 2  looks like a typical auto evade when troops in the 'Rattled' morale state become Pinned.
I cannot comment on video 3 as I don't have any information on the unit status.
When I see my troops in CM behave in a way different to what I expect, I can typically 'roleplay out' the situation so as to be less dissatisfied with the result. 
It is hard to make that case here in either of the first 2 vids.
In vid 1, the unit does not panic, nor does it suffer from being led by an incompetent. The unit is merely dropped to 'Nervous' and still has a capable leader fronting it up. The unit is also aware of 2 enemy contacts to the north. I would therefore find it difficult to roleplay out the situation that developed and would come to the conclusion that something was wrong with the TacAI.
In vid 2, the unit is Rattled and (probably) Pinned whilst moving. The auto evade kicks in but again, I find it difficult to roleplay out that they would run back into the fire that was coming at them. Again I have to conclude that something here is wrong.
Having said that I have never witnessed a situation in any of my own games that I have not been able to roleplay out, but I've also never witnessed the Indirect Fire bug demonstrated by @IICptMillerII. That's not to deny it exists, just that I've not seen it in a game I've played. I do not have the Shock Force 2 demo.
 
 

Could this be an auxiliary effect to the fleeing implementation in engine 4?  It's possible that we never really saw this happen because fleeing (without losing command, perhaps?) is more common?
Anecdotally, I've found myself disappointed in the choices the TacAI makes when it does the "self preservation" pathing mid-turn (as opposed to broken/transparent icon running).  It occurs to me that I don't really pay close attention to what the broken units are doing...

In the particular case of the video below, I don't see how the unit is thinking only of itself based on the knowledge it has available to it when it runs back toward the enemy a second time instead of down the road or behind the wall. It simply doesn't make any sense given the in-game situation (e.g. the unit is aware of enemy contacts North). Would you agree, or am I missing something? 
Battlefront wrote: "However, we have been at a point now, for a while, where it's getting harder and harder to find reproducible, addressable corner cases.  That's good."
Agreed. And the discussions in this thread may have contributed to the identification of a reproducible corner case in the Wilcox scenario. 
If it's not sufficiently addressable, then that's not good, but only mildly not good. I realize that expecting a video game like this to be completely free of errors is not realistic. As a customer and proponent of the CM franchise I will continue to poke and prod with evidence, reason, and an open mind in an attempt to contribute to the improvement of the game experience. 
 

Ahh the elusive Siamese Abrams. Didn’t realize these ever made it into production, let alone combat testing

WeGo, PBEM head to head, the contrast between control and no control and the ebb and flow of a game.
Playing CM against a human opponent is like a slow game of chess where you're trying to out think each other. Once everything's settled at home for the evening, I love opening up CM Helper to see my opponent has sent me a turn. Then the nail biting tension as I watch the replay file to see if my attack has worked, or if I've been a dumbass and got my elite pixeltruppen wiped out to a man.
CM is a brilliant, amazing, fantastic game. Is it the best game I've ever played? .....Probably!

The detail that went into all those vehicles. Nobody would have complained if the interiors of the vehicles were not modeled. And yet they're there and they're very detailed (in some cases stunningly so!). It tells a lot about CM being a work of love.
And then you get that vehicle hit text on your armored car "RICOCHET INTO: Opening / PENETRATION" and you realize that the detail is not just there visually and aesthetically, but also functionally. 💗

Weapon ballistics and munitions. That's the one thing that CM does better than everything else IMO. No game can simulate the complexity of human behavior, but CM does a pretty masterful job with really getting down to simulating the munitions of an actual battlefield and the physics of bullets and shells and shrapnel flying around. It can be almost frightening to watch sometimes when you see companies of men get shredded to pieces with modern weaponry and you imagine what that must have looked like in reality, or how horrifying it would be to be on the receiving end of it. War movies look really fake and silly after playing CM. It's funny that we're living in an age in which video games do a better job at simulating this stuff than movies with real actors. Kind of like how Napoleonic movies do such a poor job of showing what real Napoleonic-era munitions looked like, especially with artillery and whatnot. Yet you can simulate that stuff in video games pretty easily.
With the WEGO mode in CM you can get that absurd, forensic level of detail about every little bullet flying around. You can rewind and watch an AT shell miss its target, fly between someone's legs and then smack into someone's face through a window 800 meters behind the line. Or watch bullets ricochet off a building and hit someone hiding in an alleyway. Or ricocheting into an open hatch. Or you can watch tank shells bounce off armor, fly high up into the air, and then come back down and land on some poor sap's head. Or watch bullets raining down from the sky from a firefight way on the other side of the map. Other games can do this kind of stuff -- I have fond memories of playing Red Orchestra and watching tank shells bounce off armor and then hit some dude nearby, turning him into red mist. No game has ever approached the scale of CM though with the same level of detail, with entire battalions of men running around with authentic orders of battle, visually represented down to the last man cowering in the dirt. CM was like my dream game when I was a little kid playing with toy soldiers.

Whilst the morale state of a squad is the average of the teams that compose it, the fatigue state that is applied to the squad is that of the team with the lowest state.
e.g. 2 teams with a Cautious morale state (not being caused by suppression) join up with their 3rd team which has a Rattled state (not being caused by suppression) will average the squad out to Nervous.
However, 2 teams that are rested joining up with their fatigued team mates make the entire squad fatigued. This is because an element can only move as fast as it's slowest sub-element whilst maintaining cohesion.

For me it's the level of detail and complexity. I would be hard pressed to think of any other platoon-battalion level strategy game for the late WWII era that captures the immense variety of vehicles, weapons, formations and battles that CM does. You don't just control Panthers, you don't just control Panther Gs, you control early, mid or late model Panther Gs.
One thing I love about the manuals is the encyclopedic guide to all the weapons and units at the end. I often just read that part of the manual for fun.

Damn tootin'!
Personally, and I know there will be dissenters, but I PERSONALLY absolutely love the AI reactions to incoming fire (esp no that its been adjusted [I think?] )
I'm playtesting a complex scenario, with many different firefights and situations. I've just watched a squad of men run towards a building, across a previously shelled yard. The enemy inside opened up, yet missed. My guys did exactly what they should - run back to their cover. They then turned and fired back.
It was just so cool to see.
NO WHINING, SARCASM or IRONIC comments about Oh I LOOOVE  how my APCs don't spot 10m in broad daylight, etc.
Just positivity, please

AFV/IFV combat.
Multiple ATGMs whipping across a dark valley into an approaching convoy. MG fire slicing amongst the burning vehicles, picking off survivors. Autocannon slamming into BMPS desperately trying to maneuver past the burning HQ vehicle.
Artillery strikes grinding a lovely tree-lined street to a shell holed, ruined mess, for blocks and blocks...
Infantry advancing down a lane, ambushed by reverse-facing enemy units. Man, I've been caught by that one so often...
...
This is just a ****ing great game!

Probably THE most amazing thing I ever saw in a game was when I called a 60mm mortar strike on an M3 Stuart to distract it while I could move my troops close enough to take it out & when the first shots starting coming down seeing it explode.  When I rewound & watched it over I saw that a mortarshell went right into the open hatch, causing its destruction.   THAT was something.
 
Jyri Erik
 

The only game that comes remotely close to getting you the feel of realistic combat.
Plus the only way to ever have the chance to control such forces.
(Even real life commanders do not get that. They do give orders to such units, but they do not get to control them as to executing such orders.)
playing a battle right now I would have to be at least a lieutenant colonel in real life and I would have no clue as to what was going on in the details of the battle in all 4 fronts, maybe if I was leading from the front, I would HAVE A SLIGHT VIEW OF WHAT ONE FRONT WAS DOING.
who wants that much realism anyway. I enjoy having God like powers

Whilst the morale state of a squad is the average of the teams that compose it, the fatigue state that is applied to the squad is that of the team with the lowest state.
e.g. 2 teams with a Cautious morale state (not being caused by suppression) join up with their 3rd team which has a Rattled state (not being caused by suppression) will average the squad out to Nervous.
However, 2 teams that are rested joining up with their fatigued team mates make the entire squad fatigued. This is because an element can only move as fast as it's slowest sub-element whilst maintaining cohesion.

WeGo, PBEM head to head, the contrast between control and no control and the ebb and flow of a game.
Playing CM against a human opponent is like a slow game of chess where you're trying to out think each other. Once everything's settled at home for the evening, I love opening up CM Helper to see my opponent has sent me a turn. Then the nail biting tension as I watch the replay file to see if my attack has worked, or if I've been a dumbass and got my elite pixeltruppen wiped out to a man.
CM is a brilliant, amazing, fantastic game. Is it the best game I've ever played? .....Probably!

WeGo, PBEM head to head, the contrast between control and no control and the ebb and flow of a game.
Playing CM against a human opponent is like a slow game of chess where you're trying to out think each other. Once everything's settled at home for the evening, I love opening up CM Helper to see my opponent has sent me a turn. Then the nail biting tension as I watch the replay file to see if my attack has worked, or if I've been a dumbass and got my elite pixeltruppen wiped out to a man.
CM is a brilliant, amazing, fantastic game. Is it the best game I've ever played? .....Probably!

Thanks all for your support. Let's continue.
MINUTE 9
I forgot to mention that my 60mm mortar team was able to shot one single round that I have never seen coming back to Earth before been shot at by what seems to be a HMG. They were suppressed almost immediately.
MINUTE 10
On the left side, more Germans are coming my way. You can see in the foreground one of the team of the squad protecting Obj1. This team has LOS on the woods on the right of the screenshot if some Germans want to assault Obj1 using this path.

In the center, my 60mm mortar team is now useless and even fleeing



In the woods, on my right side, I have resumed Germans' hunting...

But, my own LMG is now deployed and can return fire. Great! 🙂

Even if my 60mm mortar are pinned, I gave them the order to area fire the enemy position. Will see how this will turn out.

And, I have received this guy. I am wondering what can I really do with this one. Hopefully, the Germans don't have Javelins... Oups wrong game...🤣

 
 
 

WeGo, PBEM head to head, the contrast between control and no control and the ebb and flow of a game.
Playing CM against a human opponent is like a slow game of chess where you're trying to out think each other. Once everything's settled at home for the evening, I love opening up CM Helper to see my opponent has sent me a turn. Then the nail biting tension as I watch the replay file to see if my attack has worked, or if I've been a dumbass and got my elite pixeltruppen wiped out to a man.
CM is a brilliant, amazing, fantastic game. Is it the best game I've ever played? .....Probably!

No. Green, regular etc is experience level. There are only two fitness levels: Fit and Unfit. 
Resting is a good thing (tm) though. It much better to be able to run when you need to.
The US 60mm mortar is best firing at targets or areas the crew can see themselves.