Retributar

That was my thought also Lars ...i just can't seem to succinctely summarize a point as you or others can!.

I for the first time in forever got bored and decided to reconfigure an old computer and bring it up to operational status. I got interested in reinstalling an old Panzer General-1 game...to see if it would work in WindowsXP. I found that they had a good system for keeping track of UNITS, much easier than cycling through all the units one by one. You could call up a miniaturized map...and see all the ICONS (Which represented your units LAND/SEA & AIR < Two groups or sets) of where your troops are on the map and be able to instantly see by means of a flashing ICON which would indicate that, that those flashing UNITS had not yet moved!. Then you click the flashing ICON and it brings you to your regular game-scale map...and you then can move that UNIT which was missed!. It works just great...i prefer this system much more than cycling through UNITS...its much less work!.

If Gibralter is allowed to transit Axis Shipping...you can bet your Little-Booties...that the British will put a swift end to that nonsense!.

Jon_j_rambo ...this (Cowboy Style)reminds me of a few verses of a song i heard about 20 years ago. I wanna be a Cowboy...i wanna step in Cow-Dung...i wanna play with my 6-Gun...and have a little sick-fun!.

NOW!!!...since HAL-9000 was mentioned...what about the 'AI' having a 'PERSONALITY' reflected or emulated if possible by the actual leaders of the day???. What could be worse than an 'AI-Entity' with no feeling or vindictiveness or self servience!. Perhap's sound-bytes could be recorded for just this purpose. Just think of it...Joseph Stalin Laughing at Hitler...as he is telling him that it is time to SURRENDER KOMRADE or i bid you DASIVADANYA (Goodbye) (I don't know Russian much at all...so expect spelling mistakes). You get the idea...put some life into the AI...this will energize the game a little!. The AI could send insult's and threat's to the human opponent's.

Additional research on the "ANDROMEDA - GERAT" Good detailed information on the 'ANDROMEDA - GERAT' is sparse at best...this is all i could find on it. ----------------------------------- http://www.netowne.com/naziufos/boblee/index.htm Cylindrical UFO: "On September 29, 1944, at 10:45 a.m., a test pilot was trying out a new Messerschmitt Jet, ME 262 Schwalbe, when his attention was suddenly caught by two luminous points situated on his right. He shot at full speed in that direction and found himself face to face with a cylindrical object, more than three hundred feet long with some openings along its side, and fitted with long antennae placed in front up to about halfway along its length. Having approached within about 1,500 feet of the craft the pilot was amazed to see that it was moving at a speed of more than 1,200 m.p.h." - from U.F.O.s and Extra-terrestrials in History (Vol. 4) by Yves Naud. I believe that many of us can make some contribution to explaining the UFO mystery. This page is my modest contribution. I am sharing with those of you who are interested, an interview with Richard L. Cornwell, a veteran who was an Investigator with the 970th detachment of the U.S. Army Counter Intelligence Corps. Shortly after the end of WW II, this remarkable man actually was on site at the Harz mountain facility where Germany apparently manufactured at least some of their electromagnetic propulsion craft (also known as field propulsion craft) during the war. In retrospect, Americans should have correlated the WW II and post-war sightings of flying spheres, saucers, and cylinders to the wondrous technology of National Socialist Germany. It is an understatement to say that our government has deliberately misled us on the UFO question. My own interest in the UFO phenomenon was first sparked in February 1955 when I noticed a glowing yellow sphere hovering a few feet above a tree. This extremely fascinating object was only about twenty-five feet from where I was looking out of a window. After a few seconds it moved away horizontally at a speed of perhaps 30 mph. I had an immediate sense that this amazing machine was under intelligent control. This sighting occurred on a Sunday afternoon in Nashville, Tennessee. I would estimate the object to be between 5 to 6 feet in diameter. In retrospect, I might add that it had an uncanny resemblance to a WW II vintage "Foo Fighter.". It is likely that the German cylindrical (or cigar-shaped) craft had large photon reflectors mounted in an opening at the tail end of the ship. WW II German scientist Eugen Sänger once wrote, "Reflectors are used to direct the beams not only of searchlights and weapons rays but of various kinds of photon and pure fission rockets as well. Here they serve to reflect and collimate electromagnetic or corpuscular radiation. So doing they replace the conventional firing nozzle in directing the force which propels the rocket." Of course, there were problems associated with photon propulsion. According to the late NASA scientist, Paul R. Hill, the energy of a photon beam required to propel a UFO weighing 60,000 pounds in earth's atmosphere would be approximately 2,000 times greater than the jet energy of a Saturn class rocket with a thrust of six million pounds. German scientists were well aware of the above constraints. They knew that gravity had to be overcome by some means. Cancellation of gravity was the real challenge. I believe that through experimentation they discovered that rings fitted with ports for emission of bursts of high energy electromagnetic waves could cancel gravity by relaxing the tension in the fabric of space-time. Photon propulsion became feasible in our atmosphere and strange UFO's ("Foo Fighters", flying saucers, wingless cylinders, etc.) raced across the skies of WW II confounding the eyes (and nerves) of those who saw them. (Author's note: I will remind the reader that numerous eye witnesses have reported flashing lights along the rims of flying saucers. These lights (glowing air molecules) are actually caused by bursts of x-ray photons which distort gravity by relaxing the tension found in the fabric of space-time. See my article on gravity: Is Gravity Caused by Tension in the Fabric in Space-Time?) In March of 1997, I was very pleased to conduct a series of five interviews with a (then) 76 year old US Army Counter Intelligence Corps veteran, Richard L. Cornwell, who was actually present at the German facility where photon propulsion craft were manufactured during WW II. I believe that the following excerpts from my interviews can help each of us to decide on what really took place. RJL: What circumstances brought you to the German manufacturing site for the flying saucers? CIC Veteran Cornwell: I was on an intelligence mission which I would rather not discuss. We visited the Harz mountain facility out of intense curiosity. RJL: Did you see any flying saucers at the plant? CIC Veteran Cornwell: Well, to begin with, I don't recall anyone using the term "Flying Saucers." Our people referred to them as craft. I only examined one craft while I was there. RJL: What did it look like? CIC Veteran Cornwell: It was a large cylindrical-shaped metallic craft resting on two long, wide skids. It was painted a gray-green color and did not have any markings or German insignia what-so-ever. I gathered that it was partially assembled and when the US Army was drawing near, the Germans hastily removed the propulsion system and other sensitive items. The propulsion system had been located in the belly of the craft. You could see where it had been removed. The bottom of the craft was somewhat flattened and the top was rounded. The nose of the craft was rounded. I went all through the thing and I noticed that one of the two front windows had been broken out. They appeared to be made out of very thick glass. Several of the gauges were missing from the control panel. There were round porthole windows on each side. The outside of the craft was smooth with riveted joints. RJL: How big was the craft? CIC Veteran Cornwell: Frankly, it is hard for me to remember. I do recall thinking that it was larger than any WW II submarine. I will estimate that it was several hundred feet long and maybe 30 feet high and perhaps 20 feet across the top. RJL: Did it have a searchlight? CIC Veteran Cornwell: I don't remember seeing one. RJL: What about the craft's entrance doors? CIC Veteran Cornwell: Strange as it may sound, we could not figure out exactly where the entrance doors were located, due to damage done to the sides when the Germans dismantled the parts they wanted to remove. We concluded that the doors must have been located on the sides. RJL: Was the craft located in an underground facility? CIC Veteran Cornwell: It was stored in a well-camouflaged aboveground building. RJL: Were you briefed about the nature of this German craft? CIC Veteran Cornwell: We were told that the Germans designed it to go to the moon and that they had flown all of the operational craft which had been kept at the plant to South America and Africa. (Author's note: Germany also had an electromagnetic propulsion 300 meter long cylindrical ship which was alleged to be capable of traveling to the moon. A possible postwar siting of one of these giant ships is included in Strange Worlds by Frank Edwards. On June 30, 1947, the steamship Llandovery Castle was passing through the Straits of Madagascar, when those on board observed a 1000 feet long cigar shaped metallic craft descend from the sky and cruise along beside them for about one minute. Given the time frame of the above incident it would seem likely that this UFO was in fact a craft from a displaced Reich operating out of a secret base in Africa - or possibly Antarctica. George Leonard, author of Somebody Else is on the Moon, mentions the puzzling mystery of runic symbols appearing on the moon's surface. He cites considerable evidence of activities on the surface of the moon. Rumors have persisted for decades that German forces continued to wage a secret war after May 1945, using exotic technology - especially UFO based psychological warfare. In 1952, CIA director Walter B. Smith wrote, in a now declassified memorandum, to the director of the Psychological Strategy Board, "I am today transmitting to the National Security Council a proposal (TAB A) in which it is concluded that the problems connected with unidentified flying objects appear to have implications for psychological warfare as well as for intelligence and operations." He went on to write in section 3 of the same memo, "I suggest that we discuss at an early board meeting the possible offensive or defensive utilization of these phenomena for psychological warfare purposes.") RJL: Were you instructed to keep this information secret? CIC Veteran Cornwell: I have been warned at least three times. RJL: Were you contacted after you returned to the states? CIC Veteran Cornwell: Yes. Once by a government visitor to my home. RJL: What type of ID did he show you? CIC Veteran Cornwell: He showed me a Military Intelligence ID. Copyright © 2002, 2003 by Robert J. Lee All rights in the above article are reserved. No portion may be reproduced in any form without the express permission of the author. I hope to update this page periodically with additional facts. I am not interested in email concerning aliens, the occult, or other irrelevant topics; however, if you have documentation, or relevant new facts about German WW II electromagnetic propulsion craft to contribute, then please feel free to contact me. Thanks. E-mail: rjustinlee@yahoo.com -------------------- http://www.voicenet.com/~wbacon/nordicsaucer.html 7.) Haunebu III. An SS E4-planned deep-space disc craft. Various photographs show design variations. Over 400 feet in diameter.A side view drawing with data survives. Reportedly, U.S. found none References 3, 5, 7,8. A Haunebu IV also is reported (reference 9) 8.) ANDROMEDA PROJECT-VRIL 7: A large craft planned by SS E4 for interstellar travel, Over 100 ton capacity. Plan shows a Vril 7 craft and other smaller craft (see graphic below) contained within it. References 3,5,8. 360 feet long (Reference 9) ------- http://www.buforadio.com/ufofilespennsylvania/id22.html ANDROMEDA PLAN: The Andromeda was a craft with a diameter of 139m that was meantto transport troops, up to 5 saucers, and equipment ------- http://www.galactic2.net/rune/vril4.html At the beginning of 1943 it was planned to build in the Zeppelin works a cigar-shaped mother ship. The ANDROMEDA DEVICE of a length of 139m should transport several saucer-shaped craft in its body for flights of long duration (interstellar flights). By Christmas 1943 an important meeting of the VRIL-GESELLSCHAFT took place at the seaside resort of Kolberg. The two mediums Maria Ortic and Sigrun attended. The main item on the agenda was the ALDEBARAN PROJECT. The mediums had received precise information about the habitable planets around the sun Aldebaran and one began to plan a trip there. At a January 22, 1944 meeting between HITLER; HIMMLER, Kunkel (of the Vril Society) and Dr. Schumann this project was discussed. It was planned to send the VRIL 7 large-capacity craft through a dimension channel independent of the speed of light to Aldebaran. According to Ratthofer a first test flight in the dimension channel took place in the winter of 1944. It barely missed disaster, for photographs show the Vril 7 after the flight looking "as if it had been flying for a hundred years". The outer skin was looking aged and was damaged in several places. The ANDROMEDA DEVICE existed on the drawing board, it was 139m long and had hangars for one Haunebu II, two Vril I's and two Vril II's. There are documents showing that the VRIL 7 large capacity craft has started for secret, still earth-bound, missions after it was finished and test flown by the end of 1944: 1. A landing at the Mondsee in the Salzkammergut in Austria, with dives to test the pressure resistance of the hull. 2. Probably in March and April 1945 the VRIL 7 was stationed in the "Alpenfestung" {Alpine Fortress} for security and strategic reasons, from whence it flew to Spain to get important personalities who had fled there safely to South America and "NEUSCHWABENLAND" (explanation follows) to the secret German bases erected there during the war. 3. Immediately after this the VRIL 7 is said to have started on a secret flight to Japan about which however nothing further is known. --------------- http://membres.lycos.fr/rr0/NaziUFO.html Antigravity research began in the 1920s with the first hybrid antigravity circular craft, the RFZ-1, constructed by the secret Vril society. In 1942-43 a series of antigravity machines culminated in the giant 350-foot-long, cigar-shaped Andromeda space station, which was constructed in old Zeppelin hangars near Berlin by E4, the research and development arm of the SS." [30] --------- http://www.beyondweird.com/ufos/Bruce_Walton_The_Underground_Nazi_Invasion_28.html NAZI UFOS In his controversial presentaion UFO SECRETS OF THE THIRD REICH, Vladimir Terziski [refers to such] German secret societies as the Tempel- hoff, the Thule, the Vrill, and the Black Sun... Terziski maintains that antigravity research began in Germany in the 1920s with the first hybrid antigravity circular craft, the RFZ-1, constructed by the secret Vrill society. In 1942-43 a series of antigravity machines culminated in the giant 350-foot-long, cigar-shaped Andromeda space station, which was constructed in old zeppelin hangers near Berlin by E4, the research and development arm of the SS -------- http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/editorialdiscs.shtml Germany 1944. Things were getting desperate for hitler, as the allies were sweeping through france and denmark. He ordered another two projects, Hannebu 3 and the Andromeda project. Hannebu 3 was the same as the last two but could hold upto 30 people, and stay aloft indefinitely. Andromeda, was a cigar shaped craft, that could fly out of atmosphere. It could hold at least two craft, and could hold over 80 people. Only one was rumored to be made Germany 1945. The allies were in german territory and capturing facilitys. Hitler orders the Kuegal Baull fleet to be destroyed (to stop technology falling into allied hands), and one of them to be sent to japan. Hitler then orders the whole flying disk projects to be sent to Neu Schwabenland Antartica (aka Base 2-11, New Berlin, a not so secret antartic facility made by germany in 1937). All the hannebu craft that were still under construction were dismantled, and shipped to the antartic. All the rest of the craft made their way there under their own power. 7 hours before Berlin falls, hitler escapes to argentina via a ME226 piloted by a female german officer. The Allies march into berlin after tough fighting, nothing remained of hitler, or the flying disk project. ------- http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk/abwatch/naziufo/naziufo6.html "an 'alien tutor race' that secretly began cooperating with certain German scientists in the late 1920s in underground bases and began to introduce their concepts of philosophical, cultural, and technological progress" . . " (he) maintains that antigravity research began in the 1920s with the first hybrid antigravity circular craft, the RFZ-1, constructed by the secret Vril society. In 1942-43 a series of antigravity machines culminated in the giant 350-foot-long, cigar-shaped Andromeda space station, which was constructed in old Zeppelin hangars near Berlin by E4, the research and development arm of the SS." [30] ------- HISTORY: http://www.zephonministries.com/human_machinations.htm On January 3-4, 1934, a purported meeting took place between Hitler and Heinrich Himmler, chief of the Nazi SS. The basis of the meeting was to formulate and plan a journey to the stars in order to reach the location from which the technology they received had originated. After years of self-education and outer-worldly influence, Hitler’s “black sun worshipping” SS storm troopers developed the RFZ-1 anti-gravitational aircraft. It was originally designed for military reconnaissance applications and land-based conventional warfare. Soon followed the development of the RFZ-2 which was a round aircraft with magnetic impulse steering capability. Still pursuing the search for a way to become independent from the need of foreign oil Hitler founded the SSE-4 — a research group on alternative energy. By 1935, the German Nazi hierarchy were intensely aware of the existence of life and technology on other stars in the universe. At least, that is what they were led to believe by an elite few associated with Asian occultism. Hitler began to “open” the portal to the worlds beyond via his SS. The drive to abandon the energy sources gained via explosion and move toward an alternative energy source of electro-gravitational propulsion via implosion led to the development and construction of the HE 138, 178, and 280 Yet, all of these round, saucer-shaped crafts were still powered by conventional propulsion. In 1938, the RFZ-4 and RFZ-5 were constructed. This year was also when the German military undertook a massive Antarctica expedition which culminated in Hitler’s SS staking claim to a land area of nearly 229,000 sq. miles. Evidence supports the assertion that the Germans had established a submarine base here to hide and further develop their “alien” technology. In 1939 came the RFZ -7. And in July of 1941, the development of the “flying gyroscope” led to the testing of the RFZ -17 by the end of 1942. Retired CIA agent, Virgil Armstrong, stated that Adolph Hitler was given unlimited financial backing for an 8 month period to further develop this extraordinary technology. In “Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler,” Dr. Anthony Sutton provides the unquestionable documentation which substantiates that some of this funding was received from the Bush and Kennedy families in America. On April 17, 1945, Hitler tested the V-7 above the Baltic sea. The VRIL-7 was a supersonic helicopter powered by 12 BMW 028 turbo engines fueled with helium. On it’s maiden flight it reached an altitude of 78,000 feet; 80,000 feet on it’s second flight. The first VRIL craft (V-1) had attained a speed of 1200 mph. The V-2 reached a speed of 2500 mph and was capable of 900 turns. It was outfitted with a laser beam weapon capable of penetrating 4” of armor. Modem day physicists still question these possibilities. PROJECT “Andromeda,” the latter being the cigar-shaped mother crafts — some of which were estimated to be nearly 106 meters long ------- HISTORY: http://www.zephonministries.com/human_machinations.htm

Les Put the ' Plug ' in the jug...bend the knee instead of the elbow...and put your mental resources to use...we are all waiting...with the axiom...'Let Us Prey'...as we try to elevate or deviate your new suggestions. Come play with us!...let the ideas roll...we want a superb game...not a [lipstick on a pig] reguritation of past foray's.

I was born in Toronto and grew up in St. Catharines...near the falls.

As i read in other postings...some countries require different amounts of time to move their respective units. Britain might take a minute or two to move...then Germany may need 5 or 10 minutes. What is needed is a timing situation to reflect the timing requirements for that particular country...which could change as the game progresses. This could be mutually agreed to by the participating players...it would be great to have a clock that could be set for 2 or more timer settings...for 2 or more players.

winkelried...i know that ULTRA information was passed on to the Russians about the German Build-up at Kursk. I just can't find any information on the internet to confirm it!. All i have found are some vague references to ULTRA regarding Operation Zitadelle...nothing worth posting here!. When and if i find that information...i will post it here!. ----- No sooner hath i spoken and it is then revealed!. http://zhukov.mitsi.com/Kursk.htm From the Elite Forces of the Third Reich Website http://www.forces70.freeserve.co.uk/index.htm "The Russians without a doubt knew of the impending German offensive with the massive build up of German armor and troops around the salient and through their "Lucy" spy network in Germany and also from ULTRA codes intercepted by the British and passed on to Stalin." -------- http://www.flamesofwar.com/article.asp?articleid=30 "German operations started on July 5. Unfortunately for them the Soviets were ready. Intelligence gathered from prisoners and Allied intelligence agencies (interceptions of German radio traffic decoded by the British "Ultra" operation) meant the Soviets were well prepared for the German offensive." [ August 09, 2004, 08:19 AM: Message edited by: Retributar ]

Your right about the Germanys obsession with radio contact with the U-Boat fleet and the blabbering's by Admiral Lutgens Jersey John...i agree with that,...but i don't have enough ENIGMA knowledge to know whether ENIGMA transmissions could be 'absolutely secure'. From my previous postings...the information shows that the Germans introduced a 'fourth wheel' into the Cypher-Machine and so...from February 1942 to Dec 1942...it seems that the ENIGMA communications were relatively secure..."to my surprise!",...as i had read the book 25 years ago...and apparently forgot that part of the story,...i only remembered that it was quite effective overall. At this point in time only the 'Battle of the Atlantic' was the big issue...and by the time ENIGMA transmissions were finally cracked again,...the Americans entered the war...and so now ENIGMA became important for the land campaigns!. And yes. JJ i would prefer not to 'slavishly repeat historical events', although permit them to occur...but, not so as to be a necessity or a given in the game. We already understand enough of WW2 to the point where we already have to a degree the advantage of having De-Cyphered the ENIGMA machine. If that is the case,...then we don't need to incorporate ENIGMA as it was historically. [ August 08, 2004, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: Retributar ]

Correct me if im mistaken...and really...that seems to not be a problem here!. If Bletchly Park concentrated on the U-Boat threat above all other endeavors...then whynot give the convoys an occassional break?. For example...plan for a convoy route...then do an 'ULTRA-CHECK' at a % cost...as it takes Human resources and time to do this...if you want to...to determine if U-Boats are awaiting in ambush on your selected route. Then for the Allied player to avoid heavy convoy losses...he could elect to cancel the convoy (At a cost of a % of MPP's) or reroute it at a greater % cost of the afore-chosen quantity of MPP's to transport...or he could go for broke (No MPP % cost) and hope that the computer dice will smile on his behalf and minimize or cancel the projected losses!. This way...there is no Free-Lunch!...you make your bets and roll the dice!. Once you select to ship MPP's by convoy...you can't just back out of the Convoy-Run and avoid any penalties or cost if ULTRA or other dectection mean's reveal a U-Boat ambush. So to restate...you either Cancel and pay a certain % of MPP's...or reroute at a greater cost of a % of MPP's ...or go for broke and take your chances!.

Thank's Desert Dave...those are welcomed improvements... ------ By the way Desert Dave will there be any provision for having a full-sized North America...as i feel like invading it...after Russia is defeated?. It would be more fun...if the North American continent was represented as a complete product instead of an Eastern Seaboard shelf!. [ August 08, 2004, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: Retributar ]

Seed od Doubt i hate to agree with the K.I.S.S. principle...(Keep-It-Simple-Stupid)...as i usually prefer 'complex-games'...however in Strategic Commands case i have made the exception. Hubert will certainly try to keep it as simple as he can while allowing for a little greater measure of depth in SC2!...he has as much stated that already...so...not to worry in that department!. As far as more tiles...well it appears to me that SC2's map will not be any larger than SC1's...i have already voiced my opinion for a larger map...but, im not the game designer...and perhaps for this game a larger map size is not the best in the end...i dont know...will have to find out later!. Here is a very good point of yours Seed od Doubt ...as far as i can recall...i haven't seen any postings on that subject... GOOD - POINT!!!. Another 'Good-Point' ... ...this has been mentioned somewhat...and i agree...airpower was too-strong in SC1...and Armour units were underpowered!. Im lost on this one...dont know what to make out of it?... ?. ...these mentioned items will be in good shape from what i have read in this discussion forum!. .... NOW!!!... this is one area where i heartily do concur-on!...and to some degree i think these will and are being addressed!. We need pzrgndr & SeaMonkey to elaborate more on some of your points...as they are very-much involved in and with the mechanics of SC2!.

SeaMonkey airsupply was an iffy prospect at best ... the only time i can recall that it did any real good was when it was used in Burma to supply the ' Chindit's 'and 'Merrils Marauders'... http://www.grunts.net/army/rangers.html#_ww2 "Merrill's Marauders was another all-volunteer unit but was trained in jungle warfare. The unit was created in October 1943 to keep the Ledo Road of Burma open for supplies. Its commander was Brigadier General Frank Merrill. The unit was trained for long range, deep penetration raids into enemy held jungles. During its operations the 5307th was known by its code name, GALAHAD. From January until April 1944, GALAHAD was General Joseph Stilwell's most dependable combat unit in the liberation of Burma." ...but as for i think Bastone (101st airborne) and Stalingrad (Von Paulus) and Operation Market Garden and so on...the parachuted supplies fell far short of fully supplying these units. Air-Supply should be incorporated into this game...albiet...at less than full-sufficiency!.

Breaking Germany's Enigma Code in World War Two - By Andrew Lycett http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwtwo/enigma_03.shtml Ultra's role in the Battle of Britain was limited: better grade intelligence came from prisoners, captured documents and improved air reconnaissance. Only in 1941 did Enigma decrypts pay dividends. In the spring they provided evidence of a German military build-up prior to the invasion of Greece In March, Bletchley's reading of the Italian navy's Enigma material helped Admiral Cunningham's Mediterranean fleet defeat the Italians at the Battle of Matapan. And in the autumn, the cryptanalysts broke ciphers used by Marshal Rommel's Panzer army, both within its own units and in communications with Rome and Berlin, giving the Allies an important advantage in North Africa. By then the greatest threat to the Allied war effort came from attacks on their ship convoys in the North Atlantic. As a result, Bletchley's resources were concentrated on breaking Enigma codes used by German U-boats in this sphere of war. If the Allies could find out in advance where U-boats were hunting, they could direct their ships, carrying crucial supplies from North America, away from these danger zones. A break-through came in March 1941, however, when the German trawler Krebs was captured off Norway, complete with two Enigma machines and the Naval Enigma settings list for the previous month. This allowed German Naval Enigma to be read, albeit with some delay, in April, by codebreakers at Bletchley. In February 1942 the Germans hit back by introducing a new fourth wheel (multiplying the number of settings another 26 times) into their Naval Enigma machines. The resulting 'net' was known to the Germans as 'Triton' and to the British as 'Shark'. For almost a year Bletchley could make no inroads into Shark, and Allied losses in the Atlantic again increased alarmingly. In December 1942 Shark was broken, but German innovations meant that the Allies had to wait until August the following year before Naval Enigma was regularly read again. By then the Americans were active combatants, providing much-needed computer power to Bletchley. By how much did Ultra intelligence, gained from reading Enigma ciphers, shorten the war? Harry Hinsley, based at Bletchley during the war, suggests it was a significant asset. If it did not keep Rommel out of Egypt in 1941, it certainly did so the following year, by preventing him exploiting his victory at Gazala. As General Alexander put it, 'The knowledge not only of the enemy's precise strength and disposition, but also how, when and where he intends to carry out his operations brought a new dimension to the prosecution of the war.' The loss of Egypt in 1942 would have set back the re-conquest of North Africa and upset the timetable for the invasion of France. According to Hinsley, Overlord would probably have been deferred until 1946. Enigma successes always needed complementing with other intelligence material, but the fact that the Allies kept Enigma secret until 1974 shows how much it meant to them. ------- ULTRA vs. ENIGMA - Ian Cohen http://cghs.dadeschools.net/normandy/deception/ultra_enigma.htm ULTRA AND THE BATTLE OF NORMANDY By February 1944, Ultra had worked with several Allied commanders, including Generals Eisenhower, Montgomery, and Patton-who used Ultra intelligence to "bust open the enemy every chance he had (Winterbotham, 122-123). This cooperation was essential to carrying out the Normandy invasion successfully. In March 1943, Ultra discovered Hitler's plans for a secret weapon in the works called the V1 flying-bomb (what they found out about it, such as location of the test-sites and results, has not been revealed yet). By April 1944, Hitler was preparing launch sites on the French coast. Ultra intercepted Hitler's orders about establishing a headquarters near Amiens to control the V1 operation. The headquarters was named the 155th Flak Regiment. Colonel Siegfried Freiherr von Watchel was in command. That meant that "Overlord," the Normandy invasion, had to take place as soon as possible (Winterbotham, 119-121). In May 1944, Ultra intercepted a message from Watchel to General Heinemann, commander of the LXVI Corps (and administrator of the V1 headquarters), saying that fifty sites on the French coast were ready. That meant the Allied attack could not take place any later than June. It was a smart move. On June 6th, D-Day, Watchel was ordered to launch an all-out offensive with the V1s on June 12 (Winterbotham, 121). A dispute between Hitler and his top generals, during the spring of 1944, would end up providing the most important clue about the German defenses at Normandy. Rommel wanted his panzer divisions directly behind the beach defenses. Hitler, who trusted Rommel's judgement, went with his recommendation. But another general, Heinz Guderian, felt that the panzers would be wasted on the beaches. Hitler began to grow uncertain and suggested that the two generals talk it out. Guderian was backed up by General Geyr von Schweppenberg, who commanded the panzer group in France. Rommel adamantly refused to give in. He sent a message to Hitler, reinforcing his plans to have the panzer division behind the Normandy beaches. He felt that the superior Allied air power would severely hamper the movement of the tanks (Winterbotham, 125-127). This gave everything away to Ultra. Rommel's message revealed the locations of the panzer division on the Normandy beaches. Although Ultra did not receive Hitler's response, now they knew what to be on the lookout for. Schweppenberg gave even more away when he personally asked Hitler to keep a majority of the panzers near Paris. Hitler's response (which was intercepted by Ultra this time) was to keep four divisions, the reserve forces, would remain where they were, as an assault force. This made Overlord easier for the Allies. If Hitler had moved these divisions to the beach, the Germans would have overwhelmed the Allies at Normandy (Winterbotham, 127-128). Ultra set the stage for the Allied victory in Normandy. They had done their part. Now it was the soldiers' turn. [ August 08, 2004, 07:31 AM: Message edited by: Retributar ]

I realize that there was more to it than my simple statement...but, on the whole...the Allies were much in the know of what the Germans were doing and where they were...it wasnt much of a secret most of the time... AGAIN i'll say that i would prefer not to have ULTRA in this game as it could be a game-spoiler!. ------------ Enigma and Ultra- the Cypher War < Great Article!. http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/atlantic/enigma.aspx From the second half of 1941 onwards, information from "Enigma" was one of the key factors enabling the Royal Navy to divert convoys away from waiting wolf packs. Not all of this improvement could be put down to Ultra and SIGINT. Among other factors involved were the diversion of U-boats to the Mediterranean and Arctic, and increasingly effective Allied air patrols. It was also fortunate in the long term, if the Germans were to remain ignorant of Allied success in breaking "Enigma", that inability fully to understand a newly introduced code meant that not all merchant shipping could avoid U-boat ambush Throughout the war there would be occasional breaks in the flow of information, when the Germans changed some of the cyphers, but these were usually solved either by the increasingly sophisticated "bombes", by the growing experience of the cryptologists, or by further captures of enemy material. Even so, such breaks could cause serious problems; one such temporary inability to decipher enemy signals played an important part in the heavy losses suffered by Arctic convoy PQ17. The "Enigma" material, known as "Ultra", was, of course, combined with intelligence from a wide variety of other sources, including HF/DF and wireless intercepts and reconnaissance reports, into a body of information known collectively as "SIGINT". Though there would be other short breaks in the ability to decipher the Naval "Enigma", by now the worst of the U-boat threat was over. None of the interruptions lasted for long. By the time of the D-Day landings, the Naval "Enigma" was being broken almost instantly by the improved knowledge of the codes and the greater number of "bombes" available in the UK and USA. Only in the very last days of the war did the Germans introduce another code variation which threatened Allied supremacy in this field, and by then it no longer mattered. -------- ULTRA AND THE CAMPAIGN AGAINST THE U-BOATS IN WORLD WAR II http://www.mei1940.org/newoii/navy.html Page 31 CHAPTER V CONCLUSION It is without doubt valid to state that Ultra was to some degree an effective tool for the Allies in the Battle of the Atlantic. Whether or not the war was shorter because of it can only be speculated. Had it not been for the British and the fact that they were involved against the U-boat long before the United States entered the war, progress toward ultimate victory would have been far slower. Without a doubt the capture of the Enigma machine from U-110 by the British was the big break in Ultra in the early war years. The British efforts at Bletchley Park and at the Admiralty Tracking Room gave the United States a head start in organizing at C0MINCH and must have influenced the internal workings of OP-20G. The cooperation that was evident at all other levels and in all other endeavors between the United States and the British during the war must have existed between OP-20G and Bletchley Park. No evidence to substantiate the degree of cooperation was found during this research. It is known that a secure link via trans-Atlantic cable existed between the Admiralty Operations Intelligence Center Tracking Room and COMINCH Combat Intelligence Atlantic Section. Each of these tracking rooms was securely linked with their own code breakers respectively. Thus, the communication links were available for tremendous amounts of cooperation. Moving convoys and sinking submarines are not simple tasks under the best of circumstances and it would appear logical that the greater the cooperation between Allies, the better. Agreement on the locations, numbers and dispositions of the U-boats would facilitate coordinated efforts to sink them [ August 08, 2004, 07:50 AM: Message edited by: Retributar ]

Blashy... I was not trying to insult Canada...im originally Canadian myself!. I just took Germany's Mobilization figures and compared them with their population figures. Then i did the same for Canada...you can do it yourself and make your own comparisons. Granted...there is much more to it than that...but, i was not trying to do more than show those comparisons.

For playabilities sake i agree with you John C ( added>:NOT TO USE ULTRA ) ... if we could use ULTRA or the ENIGMA MACHINE as was used historically...then all German Troop deployments and intentions would be understood...through-out the game with little to no-surprises!. It was only for example in the Battle Of The Ardennes...that the allies were caught off-guard, only because 'Hitler' insisted on 'Strict Radio Silence' - 100% SILENCE!!! and that only certain individuals would have the need to know!. [ August 08, 2004, 07:53 AM: Message edited by: Retributar ]

Actually...the German Mobilization figure was closer to 25%...not 17.9%. This information and this web-site listed below is from previous postings in this Topic-Thread. As i said...the information i gave comes from these 3 pages. http://www.world-war-2.info/casualties/ Canada - 1,086,343 Soldiers - 42,042 KIA - 53,145 Wounded Germany - 20,000,000 Soldiers - 3,250,000 KIA - 7,250,000 Wounded http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=34;t=000373;p=3

Even when the Germans plugged there deficiencies in their codes...Bletchly Park was very adept at re-cracking them again and again through-out the war. The allies knew most of the time what the Germans were up to...and where they were...even before many of the members of the German High Command did!. How do you think 'Patton' could charge through the German lines with such ease?.

How do you spot a Convoy-Route?...there's no visible road in the water!.

The Germans MOBILIZED 17.9% of their Population for the Armed Forces...excluding train conductors and infrastructure support personnel...and the like,...so ok in theory they couldnt field a total of 4 times what they actually fielded...but certainly they could have done more than they did if they had the determination to do so. As far as not having enough experienced command personnel...well true that may have been the case at the outset...but no-one had all the experienced personnel that they needed...they needed to be trained and brought up from the ranks...Canada could have done that like all the other nations did. My point is...is that if Canada really needed to...they could have contributed much more than they actually did.

Michael Dorosh Im no expert on Canada's armed forces in WW2 ...but, im just going to use common-sense to analyize what you just said. 1 million men in uniform...perhaps?..where are your sources?. This is the breakdown i see. Im going to use Germany as an example of FULL MOBILIZATION ...at 17.9% . 12,000,000 X 17.9% = 2,148,000 FULL MOBILIZATION. These are just rough guesstemates...not fact...but, close enough i think...taken from the postings in these two pages in this Topic-string. 75,000 Airmen 5 div X 20,000 per div = 100,000 men 35,000 infantry casualties 2 Brigades = 10,000 men 1000 Naval ships of all types > 300 men X 1,000 ships = 300,000 Naval personnel. ------ This equals 520,000 men total in the Canadian armed forces. ------ 2,148,000 -520,000 --------- =1,628,000 Available manpower for the Canadian armed forces. So as i said before...they could have again TRIPLED what they already had if they really wanted too!. Yes they transferred 16,000 conscripts but there were over a million or more yet available... that could have been called upon if needed.

What about this!!!...I believe that the British had a plan to pump large quantities of Oil into the Landing Areas...then ignite it...thereby having 'Barbequed-Weiner-Schnitzel'. That would have put the crimp on an Axis invasion on the British shore-line.