Retributar

Some good ideas being plotted down here!...keep it up Guy's!.

I suppose so Les ...although ive always wanted that feature or features in a game. Actually the core of that idea comes from a game called 'IMPERIUM GALACTICA II'. That concept works very-well in that game...and...for those who have it , they will know what im saying. Another game that touched on that same method was a game called 'Pacific Theatre of Operations II' (P.T.O. II). You could design your own Battleship or Aircraft-Carrier or whatever with the features you want in it...then you could revist over the passing month's or a year or so and see the actual progress on those constructions. That was ever 'so-cool' to have such personal input like that. I guess that would be like watching 'Golf' or being able to play it 'Personally' or for real!...it's not the same thing. Granted, IG2 has only a fraction of the units that a WW2 game would have...so to make it simplier a player could just select "AI controlled'...and the computer would Auto-Select closely as possible those features that existed historically...[That you had/have researched up to that moment.] THis would by-pass the extreme micromanagement to a great degree. Anyway, this is JUST a discussion...to throw some ideas around here...nothing is written on Tablet's at this point!. [ September 04, 2004, 08:35 PM: Message edited by: Retributar ]

I watched the history channel not too long ago about D-Day. They said that the Germans had a lot of floating mines...that were anchored to chains i think...and that they were 'timed' to be active for only so long. After that they would deactivate and sink to the Ocean floor. According to the show...the allies invaded France just a few days after all the German sea mines had sunk to the bottom. Had the Allies had to confront all of those mines...the invasion may have had a different outcome. Whether the Allies knew about the function of these mines or their time-table for activation or deactivation i don't know!.

Yes...im jumping the gun..but, what the heck!. I would like a game like SC2 but more complicated or indepth...to make it more interesting...and absorbing. SC2 is already light-years ahead of SC1...and i think that SC3 could repeat that incremental evolutionary process again. I don't have all my ideas gathered at this moment...so i will just iterate what is on my mind as i speak!...and add the rest into this posting later!. To begin with, I would like to have a 'Technology Tree similar to what 'HOI' has...but the difference here is that "for example" i could examine a 'Tiger I', then see what technology i have available for tanks in that category...as well as see what present ongoing research relating to that weapon-system i have. Then...i could decide what i wish to do,...include some or all of the existing technological improvements into this weapon-system...or, wait a little longer for existing research to be completed before beginning contruction of the new prototype...or, with the technological advancements having being discovered i could instead decide to to press on with the next advancement in this category...hoping to have a better weapons-system and in greater-quantity in the end, so... instead of expending resources to commit to production of the presently researched product...then later again on the next model,... i could rather have instead 800 Panthers produced at a later date...instead of 300 Tiger-I's now...and 250 Panthers later....[As well as 600 Pzkpfwgn IV's]...re-tooling takes time...right???. Of course, one could elect to begin construction of a Weapons-System...then also elect to make further upgrades later...but, this will use up valuable Industrial-Manpower-Points that could be used more effectively and efficiently elsewhere and will cost more than waiting until the product is complete. This would by-pass that 're-tooling' time factor...and that manpower could be used for something else in the meantime(should also have a manufacturing or industrial man-power pool). The Panther tank was superior to the Tiger-I in its armour design as well as its speed and so on. So, in the meantime,...i could elect to make improvments on existing Armoured Weapons platforms...like the Pzkpfwagen IV's to assist shoring up the technology-gap with the Russians until my new models could make it into the field...and in greater numbers..."Quality & Quantity". This, of course would have an incremental combat adjustment allocated to what-ever formation that this weapon-system is deployed to. One could elect to let the computer handle this for the player, or the player could elect to do this himself!...one or all of the weapons-systems. This could be for all weapons-systems...the player could let the 'Albert-Speer'(AI) know whether he wants him to produce what he can at the moment in whatever numbers at the existing levels of research...or tell him to produce the next generation of weapons systems in greater numbers at a later date...with a higher technological level. The player could elect the 'AI' do all or some of the work for weapons research...the player could elect to do however much or little as he wishes...and let the (AI)...do the rest. ---- Going further into this,...a particular Corp's would not necessarily be the same as a similar looking Corp's...as from the preceding writing...one could see that superior weapons upgrades could be marshalled or integrated into specific units that would be used to spear-head the armies missions,...so these Corp's may look like another ,but may indeed be for example 25-50% stronger because of the technologically advanced equipment that it inherently has. in this manner a player could have a direct hand in how his nations forces are structured...so that he can design his forces as he sees fit,...there would not need to be any 'Generic-Units' here!,...that could be readily understood for their capability. So, the opposing force would never be quite sure what it is up-against until it had made contact with it!. This would again...add more realism and uncertainty into the game. Now...i wait to hear all the spoilers of this idea... . Let the fun begin!. [ September 07, 2004, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: Retributar ]

What i would like to have available is about a dozen individual complete sets of AI Strategies...that could be randomly loaded into the AI...to help avoid 'Predictablity'. Also, depending on the current winds of change...the AI should be able to change or shift strategies according to the new situations as they arise. This would help to keep the AI as a fresh and unscrutable opponent...and as well to keep the Human player guessing most of the time...as it was in reality. This should help prevent the Human player from finding work-arounds for the AI most of the time hopefully. Edwin P. can you make enough sets and variations of AI strategies 'to-make-it-so?'. [ September 01, 2004, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: Retributar ]

Why-not!...'Spys' would be able to transmit information on the obvious. If their were too few units in England or Britain...surely it would be easy for anyone to see that fact!. The 'Spys' could then let the German High Command know that resistance in England would be low enough or limited enough to permit an invasion...even though they might not know the exact compostion of those forces that are available. Likewise for the Allies their 'Spys' could let them know if their were too-few German units guarding the French coast!...or, other places!. What constitutes too-few???...i like 'Edwin P.'s' suggestion of 3 or fewer 'GROUND-Units'. This concept could help the AI player greatly in this game as well as give the Human player a chance to take advantage of such a situation.

Gee!!!...the Spaniards, the French & the British all managed to invade North and Central America with ancient ships and low technology......'so what's so impossible' for any other power to invade the U.S.??? . OHHH!!!...they cant cross that OCEAN!!!...It's TOO Vast!!!...I say Bull-Dung!!!...to that!. A few thousand Vikings rampaged through-out almost all of ancient Europe with small fishing boats!!!...and for example forced the French to give exorbitant tribute to them to bribe them to leave,...so if these ancient cultures could do it...why couldn't the Germans do it???. The Spaniards with a few hundred or thousand men conquered all of the ancient Mayan, Aztec, and other empires in Central & South America even though they were outnumbered by many times over a 1,000 to 1. So numbers alone are not always enough to make conquest undo-able. I don't know what the population figure for the U.S. was in WW2...i think it stands at 290,000,000 million now...with 5,000,000 a year for the past who knows how many years being Mexican border crossers who end up staying permanently there. Canada invaded the U.S. in 1812..and burned down what was the counterpart of the White-house. Canada almost won that war!!!...im biased!...of course!. So... i still think it could be done...unless solid proof shows me otherwise!. Whole populations do not need to be heavily garissoned in conquered countries if one has the threat to use weapons such as for example bio or chemical or alternate weapons if subjugate populations get out of control...the Germans i don't think would have been squeemish about doing that. How do you think Sadam Hussein stayed in power in 'Iraq' with such a small 'sunni' minority population...im sure the German's would have figured it out!. That would help free up manpower that is tied down in those regions. So one way or another, including recruiting more Waffen-SS type units could have helped to secure a manpower shortage that would be needed to be addressed... in order for an invasion of North America to proceed!.

Roosevelt45 this is a discussion or information topic with some factual and some unsubstantiated information dealing with WW2 as well as some that is beyond WW2. This game SC2 is advertised as "Rewrite history with 6 full length campaigns ('39, '40, '41, '42' 43, '44) each lasting to the historical end of the war and beyond" . This discussion thread primarily deals with information that might be used for beyond '44...as you have seen advanced U.S., German & Russian Aircraft and Vehicles that did not actually make it to the battlefield... BUT!!!...might have had the war lasted through '45 and beyond!. Really!, if you had taken the time and care to read carefully what was there...i wouldnt need to explain any of this information. Granted...it goes into UFO type subjects and so on...but, Foo-Fighters (Have you ever heard of Foo-Fighters???...they did exist!.) were a reality experienced by Allied pilots...and the main UFO phenomena also began in WW2...so even though some of these subjects are just too unacceptably bizarre for you...doesnt mean that there isnt any truth at all to it. Some of these ideas,...of course the more acceptable ones might reach this game...as for the example some of the advanced weapons...and the hypothetical invasion opportunity of North America. It baffles me why this subject matter is so puzzling???.

Sounds very-good Edwin P...i like what i am reading...keep it up!!!.

Liam i agree with your evaluation of the 'Italians'...but, in addition to those comments...i have to say that the 'Italians' had 'no stake' in this war...they had no reason to fight it...and so were not motivated,...they were forced into war by their Dictator 'Mussolini'...who had an agenda that his people did not!.

JJ and Liam both of you have good argument's...but, until further information is revealed i tend to side more-so with Liam ...as i also think that the Germans and Japanese have been underestimated. The Japanese for example had their Army and Navy at Heavy-Odd's with each other over almost everything. That's why you see them splitting up forces for Midway and i think the Coral-Sea...that's why they look like they can't seem to get it together. As far as Midway goes... "Luck" was not involved...despite what the movie Midway show's... ULTRA had already determined where the Japanese were going to strike!. So it was then a simple matter for the U.S. Navy to put their forces in the most advantageous position to defeat the Japanese invasion force. Reconnaissance patrols were sent out in anycase to veryify the ULTRA information. I agree with you JJ that the Germans had severe limitations...but, i also agree with Liam that the potential for the Germans to make good on their 'Behind-Position' was/could have been very much possible given that Europe was finally under their control. Invading North America would in my opinion 'Not Be Impossible'... although as previously discussed i would tend to agree with JJ that 5 years would be a reasonable bench-mark for invasion capablility to be realized. Don't forget...they would now have all the conquered countries ship-yards available to them now to create this vast Naval arsenal to accomplish an invasion effort against North America. The Russians had a great capability in this area for example!. I also like Liams suggestion: Seems very reasonable to me..., because anything less than that...to me...seem's like guaranteed failure. These were the type of discussions i was trying to get off the ground under my own topic 'Something I Hope WILL HAPPEN in SC2!'...but, failed to do so. All i get is comments like 'Interesting'...and 'Phobic' replies of hysteria!.

Don't get excited 'Hyper-Excited' over nothing Roosevelt45 ...no-one said that any of this will be included in the game. Please read everything carefully before you start making wild accusations...which have no basis in fact!.

Ohh! Les i thought this topic was totally dead!. Good to see you reply with what-ever opinion. I just ran across this information (Accurate or Inaccurate) as i was searching for other information and decided to put it here. I can put it here and it should not offend nor pollute anyone else's thread. It's food for thought...for 1945 and beyond or for something else.

Quote: JerseyJohn Yes, very true...based on what they had in WW2...their fleet was not in anyway capable of that. However if the Germans were victorious over Russia...and then knocked out Britain after-that...they would now be under little threat...and would have access to resources through-out the continent. It would take years to build a fleet such as the U.S. had so as to be able to attempt a trans-atlantic crossing in force. Not only that...the Japanese could work in conjunction with them to take pressure off their efforts to invade North-America. They both could attack simultaneously. The Germans would need to take over Cuba and or other islands in order to be able to stage their forces (Such as the U.S. did with England) for a land invasion as well as set up an air umbrella to protect their installations. That's why this game is advertised as "Rewrite history with 6 full length campaigns ('39, '40, '41, '42' 43, '44) each lasting to the historical end of the war and beyond". The Germans certainly had the technical know-how to attempt such an endeavor...but could'nt do it while fighting a 2 or 3 front war. Now with the European continent subjugated...the situation changes!. Whether this is really realistic or not...i do not care...i just wish to explore this avenue to see what happens...it would be a nice change of pace for once!.

it's Les your argument holds merit...however, i for one do very much want to explore other possibilities other than the mundane. You can finish the game in 1945...or set the game-limit to end in 1945...and keep it as historical as possible...thats a game that many will want. I have played many historical games on WW2 and am looking for something a little more (Not some idiotic far-fetched fantasy scenario)...so for me, the enhanced North America map is just the ticket i want. http://portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$WTCUQHIAAADILQFIQMGCFGGAVCBQUIV0?xml=/news/2002/05/09/wkais09.xml&sSheet=/news/2002/05/09/ixworld.html http://www.originofnations.org/germany/german_plans_to_invade_uk&usa.htm http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/policy/1941/411211b.html "If the Providence has so willed that the German people cannot be spared this fight, then I can only be grateful that it entrusted me with the leadership in this historic struggle which, for the next 500 or 1,000 years, will be described as decisive, not only for the history of Germany, but for the whole of Europe and indeed the whole world. The German people and their soldiers are working and fighting today, not only for the present, but for the coming, nay the most distant, generations. A historical revision on a unique scale has been imposed on us by the Creator." Does this sound like Hitler's ambitions were limited???...i think not!.

CPT Pete ...if Sealowe or Sealion were successful...im quite sure that this would not be the end of the game. What exactly determines the end of the game besides total annihilation...i don't know. One of the game testers or a designer will need to answer this question for you.

Les... why limit the game to Europe only?. ...what if the Axis had actually won?...this game is till 1945 and beyond...not just to 1945,...surely they would invade North America next...that's obvious!. Personally i think including the North American map will enhance the game and extend its re-playabiity & lifespan. You can do so much more with a map like that than with the one in SC1. To me that's not a mistake. If we want Japan and the Pacific ...thats for later as an add-on or another game entirely.

I have run across from time to time exerpts describing technology sharing between the Axis partners. So for technology...there was not much of a limitation. For example the Italians and the Japanese were on their way to developing their own jet forces (German Technology)...for which they paid a fee for, also missile and rockets...and so on. The Japanese for example had nearly something like 2000 jets that were on the verge of going into action...they were waiting for the Americans to invade Japan!. Up till that point, those jets were kept hidden..in underground cavern's in a mountain!. Better leaders are required as you say (The Italians were very poorly led)...so is national will, availablity of resources, and industrial capacity. I dont know how all of this will be represented in the game...someone else will need to answer your query moreso than i can.

Some good thought's it's Les ... just please don't come down on us like...as if someone just pissed in your cornflake's!.

Thankyou Edwin P for filling in the empty slots... . That being the case...there should be no problem in incorporating this Event/Situation into SC2!.

Edwin P your presentation is not outside the scope of SC2...as far as im concerned, it can be included as another option for game interest or complexity for those who wish to use this avenue or to experiment with it!. The only thing that still nag's me is that for Japan to prosecute the war against either the Russians or the USA...they need the raw material resources to do so...otherwise it cannot be. I know that the Japanese were getting their resources that they needed from the Pacific Region...but, now if they decide for now not to expand in the Pacific...in order to keep US involvement out of their affairs,...where will they get the resources to keep their Army-Navy-Airforce operational?. Oil---Steel---Coal---Rubber etc...will be needed to supply their war-machine for a war-effort against Russia!. If the Japanese decide to make Russia the main target of their ambitions and they now stay in China with a stronger more determined presence...to some extent...perhap's those requirements could be satisfied (from Manchuria-etc). This is an area that need's to be covered by someone who know's how to fill in these blank's!.

Timing should also be based on the number of units that you have. Maybey an equation can be made to auto-calc the time for the different nations based on the number of pieces that they have!.

The game should go on for as long as it needs to go on until it is concluded. For tournaments...the players can vote on or agree on and end year and date. I don't want this game limited to a 1945 or 46 cut-off!.

Sounds good to me!.

That scenario might have a problem...as the Japanese were outclassed by the Russians historically. The Russians agreed to cease hostilities with the Japanese because of pressing concerns on the Eastern Front. For this situation to take place...the Japanese would require to be able to aquire the resources in Russian territory to make up for what they would not now aquire in the Pacific,...which led to the Americans entering the war with Japan. That's all i know about that situation without further research!. The Pacific campaign was not my main area of interest.