Sgt Joch

re: the current Iraqi Army, Col. T. Reese wrote an unusually blunt memo in 2009 that should have made it clear that the new Army was a disaster waiting to happen, but it was widely ignored by the Obama administration.
 
 
full text here:
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/31/world/middleeast/31advtext.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

re: the current Iraqi Army, Col. T. Reese wrote an unusually blunt memo in 2009 that should have made it clear that the new Army was a disaster waiting to happen, but it was widely ignored by the Obama administration.
 
 
full text here:
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/31/world/middleeast/31advtext.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

There were 'bad guys' but they were mostly at the leadership levels.  The rank and file soldiers simply tried to get though the war alive and acted to protect their friends, their family and their town or village.  A number crossed the line and went from 'defender' to murderer.  That happened a lot.  The worst duty I had was 'documenting atrocities and war crimes' for the UN.  About as ghastly as it can get for me and a real low point in my life.
 
But take this as someone who was boots on the ground for that particular situation.  I don't broad brush the Serbian people as a nation of bloody thirsty murderers.  The leadership either condoned, ordered or ignored the killing done by troops of their country and in my opinion, they should go to the wall for that.  But the majority of Serbs or Croats or Bosnians didn't know what their leaders were allowing to happen at the time and why the long period of denial that took place.  Until the videos and other evidence started coming forward and the Serbs simply couldn't deny what happened.
 
Serbia is a nation of victims in my book.  As were the Croatians and the Bosnians. Victimized by the war and further victimized by the complicity of their leaders who carried out war crimes and lied to the very people they were to protect and serve.  There is a thin line between being a soldier and being a mass murderer.   That line was crossed too many damn times in that conflict but I blame the leadership and the soldiers who decided to cross that line - not the people of that nation nor the soldiers who conducted themselves honorably and 'chose' that was a line they would not cross.

Looks like this thread is rapidly swirling down the drain.  Perhaps best to shove a plug in.
 
Looks, gents, war is hell.  There is nothing glamorous about it.  There is nothing moral about it.  And it is nothing to celebrate. 
 
It is really easy to point fingers at the other side and decry them as murderous bastards, fascists, commie pinkos, the great satan... pick you favorite slur.   It changes nothing in the long run.  It doesn't bring back the dead. It doesn't comfort or heal the wounded, whether those wounds are physical or psychological.
 
It just leads to another cycle of violence.  Like the saying in Star Wars - anger leads to the dark side.
 
When I was in Bosnia in '93 as a Canadian peacekeeper, two Bosnia Serb soldiers came up to me at a checkpoint.  They were two brothers from Toronto, Canada.   I asked them why they were here in Serbian military uniforms.  I then heard a story about as they were growing up, they heard from their grandparents and their parents over and over about what the Croats did to the family in WW2 and stuff post war.  They were here to defend the motherland and to settle accounts with the Croatians for something that happened to the family nearly 50 years ago.  I don't get that - they were born in Canada (their family came to Canada post war) yet they felt that this was THEIR war to fight.
 
Anger and hatred lead them here.  Instilled by the anger and hatred of their parents, perpetrated by anger and hatred from their parents.  Fighting in a war not of their making, for a cause not their own, for a homeland they have never seen.  A cycle of violence nearly 50 years in the making.
 
I have seen some of that anger expressed here and I am reminded of that time talking with the two brothers.  And I am seeing the seeds of that tragedy here.
 
I was in a very dark place for a long time after my peacekeeping tour in '93.  Some would call it PTSD.  You can only see so much of genocide up close and in your face and a part of me inside died.  There was no moral high ground for either side,  All sides did stuff terrible things that are war crimes - the Bosnians, the Croatians and the Serbs.  Yes, the bulk of the ethnic cleansing was done by the Serbs but is no excuse for the Bosnians and the Croatians to do what they did.  I saw a beautiful country in ruins, shattered lifes, mounds of civilian dead, and a land with seeming madmen running around with guns seeming to want to re-fight WW2 or address the wrongs they suffered in that conflict..
 
Chains of the past.  So many people in the world are bound by those chains.  I see the ghosts of the past conflicts playing out in the conflicts of today.  There is the real tragedy.  We seemingly can't escape our past and we poison the well for our children so they are doomed to repeat our mistakes.
 
Anger leads to the dark side.  That is true.  I lived it grappling with my PTSD and the nightmares of seeing a country gone mad in Bosnia.  I wanted to kill every ethnic cleansing son of bitch with a gun.   It took a long time but I came to accept certain things.
 
I saved lots of civilians, Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian but not enough for me.  I wanted to save all of them.  I couldn't and felt guilty for decades as a result.   War lesson 1:  In war people die, soldier and civilian alike,  War lesson 2:  You can't do anything to change lesson 1.  It took a long time for me to embrace that and that saved my sanity ultimately.
 
There is real evil in the world and real monsters.  The monsters look like us and talk to us but make no mistake, there are real monsters out there.  You only see them for what they are by what they do.  I want to Kill All The Monsters but the reality is, strike one down and another rises to take his place.  Nothing changes and we learn nothing from our history.  Hitler was struck down and Rwanda and Bosnia happened.  Deal with those and then it is Sudan. Or Cambodia.  Or Syria.  Or ISIS.  Or who ever the next Hilter wannabe is.   People who don't learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them.  
 
Chains of our past.  Everyone has this issue.   Do you allow the past to bind you and deny you a better future or do you let it go.
 
The chains of the experiences in Bosnia bound me and put me on a self destructive path to most likely a grim future.  Only by embracing what happened and learning to rise above it, to not allow the past to control my present so I can forge a new future did I finally find peace for my soul.  It was hard because the chains are thick and strong - memories, recollections and seeing stuff like the genocide in Bosnia playing out elsewhere in the world brings it all back.  But I broke free finally and the memories are not emotionally charged as they were in the past as a result.  No, the memories never go away.  But you can make peace with them and find a way to a sort of 'wholeness' again.
 
I have rambled on.  Partly to acknowledge my past and the role I played in it.   A affirmation that something in life tried to beat me down and I rose above it.
 
Partly to my brothers in arms from any side of the conflicts who are dealing the the imprint of what total war does to their soul and well being, that there is a way ahead.  Memories can become less emotionally charged and less painful. Memories do fade somewhat through time, working hard toward wholeness, and throwing off the shackles of the past and living for the future.  It is not a easy road or a fast road and not everyone can break their chains of the past but it can be done.
 
And finally, to the Croatian, Bosnian and Serb posters.  I see anger and pain in your words.  War is terrible and it will write things on your soul that will deny you a bright, happy future.  I know.  I was there.  I have lived it.   Acknowledge the past, regardless of how ugly or hurtful it is.  Realize the past is the past and is not your future unless you allow it.  Do not do what a Serb family that moved to Toronto did and poison their two sons with what happened long ago in a land now far away that resulted in them involving themselves in killing other people, perhaps being killed themselves and exposing themselves to the horrors of war, for a cause not that shouldn't been theirs to fight and a war they shouldn't have been involved in, all over something that happened nearly 50 years ago.   Don't deny the future of your children or grandchildren by binding them in YOUR chains of the past and dooming them to fight in some future war because the last war had a negative impact on your family.
 
War is death, destruction, shattered lives and futures denied.  Don't glorify it and not rationalize it.  Your a damn fool otherwise.

These are estimated numbers and all occurred after NATO started its bombing campaign in support of the KLA. If you want to make a case that NATO intervention was required, you have to look at conditions beforehand. According to one UN report, there were 30-50,000 refugees in late 98, most displaced Serbs.
 
 
again apples and oranges, you have to look at casualty figures before the intervention started. The KLA claimed thousands were killed, but no investigation on the ground has been able has been able to say with any degree of certainty how many were killed, when they were killed or even which side killed them.
 
 
"bodies to holes"? no western org ever did a on the ground investigation, these are all estimates. Serb and other neutral sources reporting from inside Serbia put the number at 2-5,000 Serbian civilians killed by NATO air stikes.

That is how these threads always wind up.
These forums used to have a lot of interesting discussions about military history, now it is just endless boring chest thumping about how superior our side is to the other side.

That is how these threads always wind up.
These forums used to have a lot of interesting discussions about military history, now it is just endless boring chest thumping about how superior our side is to the other side.

what i am seeing here ,from people like sublime,panzer and other ,basically from people who are pro america , to the reasonable extent is: ' everyone's bad but were just less bad' 
and also ' its clear that X did more killings and Y did less killings and X is more guilty' while offering 0 evidence and even less evidence that is 100% Clear undisputed Evidence
 
edit: for every your acusition against serbia i have 2 to throw at croatia/albania. its endless circle and not productive at all

Panzer wrote:
 
"Contrast this to the Russian army which can give locusts a run for it's money, if locusts could rape and install puppet governments.  That's actually rather another reason I strongly dislike the Russian military, it's like having another company that does what you do, only sans morality, decency, and gloats about how it gets away with a lack of either.  Which almost loops back onto the topic, it's why I hate the Russian "victory" day parades.  They're in effect celebrating the nightmare they brought through Eastern Europe, the Stalinist oppression of thousands of innocent people, and the systematic rape and looting of anything with a correctly sized set of holes, or that could fit on a train back to Moscow.  It's like if the US Army had a "Wounded Knee Victory Parade" or the Brits held a festival to celebrate the first use of the maxim gun on indigenous people.  Then pair it with being a celebration of a return to Russian militarism and it just honestly gets sort of sick in that regard."  
 
Panzer, you just gotta look at Russia as a country that is going through the cycles that all other major countries went through 100-400 years ago (sort of, delayed evolution). What you describe, is exactly the same as what the British or the French did to their colonies. Or what the young (first founded) Americans did to the Indians or the African slaves. Russian people themselves are people who have been enslaved for hundreds of years by the Mongol-Tatars, then by the Imperialist Tsarism, then by the corrupted "freedom" of Communism, then by the Mafiosi of the 90's, and now by the current dictatorship. This, and the huge population losses of two world wars and the subsequent Stalinist repressions, has really made the people "bitter". I know its not an excuse, but Russia (well, certainly Russian mentality) has not evolved as quickly as the rest of the civilized world. You can still sort of consider it as a, maybe not 3rd world country, but definitely 2.5 world country. I feel that for my homeland to reach similar levels of Morality as is exhibited right now in the West, it will take about 50-100 or so years, and a few regime changes. 
 
HAVING SAID THAT, I believe that Russians actually need a strong Dictator leader at the present moment, because without one, the country will just return back to the 90s, with various fragments of society all vying for power through dubious means. 
 
Regarding the Victory Day parade celebrations - you got it wrong mate. Its like saying that you guys celebrate 4th of July Independence day as a celebration of all the pillaging your nation did in its birth, and then got away with it by cutting ties to "civilized" european "motherlands". Russians celebrate Victory day, because 20 or so million people died in WW2, and about 2million in WW1. The looting/raping/oppression of Eastern states is a by-product of a harsh and severe attitude that was exerted onto Russians during the Nazi advance. My Grandmother on my Father's side was raped by Fashist Poles (she is from Western ukraine). My Nanny, from when I lived in St. Petersburg in my infancy,  was captured by the Norwegians and mutilated during the 300 day blockade of Leningrad. And there are MILLIONS of stories like that. How do you think the Husbands, Fathers, Brothers of such women would react, when bitterness is deep in their soul and they are finally pushing back into the lands of the invaders? There you go. 
 
You Americans have never experienced such loss/terror/anguish, because all your wars of the last 100 years are far away from home. Don't judge Russians for their attitude, because there is A LOT of history that got them to this attitude. 
 
Of course, the flip side, is that - this was 70 years ago, Russians should move on, let go of the bitterness, forgive and forget so to say, act more "honourable" etc. like the rest of the world is, become friendly with neighbours, etc etc. I dont know. I see that the African population of certain cities in the US is definitely still bitter about certain circumstances that used to happen more than 150 years ago (before slavery was abolished in the States). I mean heck, they BUILT your country and its economy, but yet probably more than half of them live much worse off than a poor Russian family currently lives (and I have been to the States many times, so I do know what I'm talking about). 
 
So, not to take a bite at you or anything with the above, but Russians are a proud people (maybe not noble, but definitely very proud), who respect their past/history, celebrate the memory of the forefathers, like to flex their muscle (even when its made out of cardboard), think the rest of the world is out to get them (not just because of state propaganda, but because of the lessons taught by history), and will continue to do whatever the hell they want until either (a) they are knocked on the head (internally or externally), or ( throgh the years they travel west more, see how the rest of the world lives, and try to bring good moral principles back to their homeland for improvement. They definitely do not view the Americans or the States as anything that should provide them with a good moral compass (you guys have been ridiculing Russia waaay to much in the past - Hollywood et al, which just adds to the Russian's "bitterness"). They do view Germany and the UK in quite high regard, as well as Finland/Sweden.
 
Oh, almost forgot to say, regarding the behaviour of the current Russian Military - you gotta remember that the RF military has not fought alongside any of the Western militaries against a common enemy in like, ever? I think for the Russian Military, in order to act in the "morally correct" way that you describe, would need to be deployed somewhere along side Western forces, so as to learn from their behaviour, emulate it, and garner respect from their comrades in arms for emulating such behaviour. I mean, isnt this how you guys became so "polite" while waging war? Because you did it alongside the French and the Brits, who would say - Oi, you there Sir, why are you acting like that to those poor farmers? It must be a psychological thing - if you are criticized for your behaviour from the OUTSIDE, then the Russian troops are like - whatever, youre not here, dont tell us what to do and what not to do. Whereas, if your troops are next to theirs, pinned in an arty bombard, losing comrades in arms equally, and then if the Russians start abusing the residents of a village that you both have just stormed, and you say - dude, thats wrong - they may listen to you closer, because they wont want to look bad in the eyes of their comrades in arms.  

That might be justifiable, if it was true, and certainly that is what the administration is feeding the american public, but in fact the target list is very broad.
 
being a deserter was enough to have a death sentence:
 
Just having the wrong phone could trigger a strike. No verification was made to see who was there:
 
civilian casualties were considered acceptable "collateral damage". Note also how the definition of "civilians" was deliberately curtailed:
 
 
the procedure to "identify" a target was also a bit vague:
 
Drug dealers, farmers and couriers were also considered to be legitimate targets, whether they had any connection or not to the Taliban:
 
 
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/secret-docs-reveal-dubious-details-of-targeted-killings-in-afghanistan-a-1010358.html
 
The U.S. governemnt likes to give the impression that the drone program is a hi-tech "James Bond" type precision operation, but when you look into it, it is just another variation of the same type of terror bombing we have seen before, like the WW2 saturation bombing or Vietnam type "Kill ratios".
 
Is it making "America safer" or just creating the next generation of enemies?

That might be justifiable, if it was true, and certainly that is what the administration is feeding the american public, but in fact the target list is very broad.
 
being a deserter was enough to have a death sentence:
 
Just having the wrong phone could trigger a strike. No verification was made to see who was there:
 
civilian casualties were considered acceptable "collateral damage". Note also how the definition of "civilians" was deliberately curtailed:
 
 
the procedure to "identify" a target was also a bit vague:
 
Drug dealers, farmers and couriers were also considered to be legitimate targets, whether they had any connection or not to the Taliban:
 
 
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/secret-docs-reveal-dubious-details-of-targeted-killings-in-afghanistan-a-1010358.html
 
The U.S. governemnt likes to give the impression that the drone program is a hi-tech "James Bond" type precision operation, but when you look into it, it is just another variation of the same type of terror bombing we have seen before, like the WW2 saturation bombing or Vietnam type "Kill ratios".
 
Is it making "America safer" or just creating the next generation of enemies?

caption: "wonder if we can blame the CIA for this?"

caption: "wonder if we can blame the CIA for this?"

According to the Credit Suisse Global Wealth Study, where that statistic supposedly comes from, in Russia 111 persons control 19% of the overall wealth in 2014 (p. 53). No comparable figure for the USA.
 
https://publications.credit-suisse.com/tasks/render/file/?fileID=60931FDE-A2D2-F568-B041B58C5EA591A4
 
However, both Russia and the USA are ranked as having "very high inequality" (p.30). In Russia the top 10% own 84.8% of the wealth. In the USA, the top 10% own 74.6% of the wealth. The "very high inequality" ranking put the USA and Russia in the same category as Egypt, India, South Africa, Thailand, etc.(p.33)
 
OTOH, Canada, UK, France, Italy, Australia, New Zealand, Finland are all rated as having only "medium inequality" since the top 10% own between 50-60% of the overall wealth.
 
Not sure it is anything for Americans to be bragging about .

According to the Credit Suisse Global Wealth Study, where that statistic supposedly comes from, in Russia 111 persons control 19% of the overall wealth in 2014 (p. 53). No comparable figure for the USA.
 
https://publications.credit-suisse.com/tasks/render/file/?fileID=60931FDE-A2D2-F568-B041B58C5EA591A4
 
However, both Russia and the USA are ranked as having "very high inequality" (p.30). In Russia the top 10% own 84.8% of the wealth. In the USA, the top 10% own 74.6% of the wealth. The "very high inequality" ranking put the USA and Russia in the same category as Egypt, India, South Africa, Thailand, etc.(p.33)
 
OTOH, Canada, UK, France, Italy, Australia, New Zealand, Finland are all rated as having only "medium inequality" since the top 10% own between 50-60% of the overall wealth.
 
Not sure it is anything for Americans to be bragging about .

To expand on that final point, the published specs say the Javelin should have a PK of 95%. However, since most info on the Javelin is classified and since the US military and the manufacturer have an interest in making the Javelin look as powerful as possible, there has been an ongoing debate on whether that number is entirely accurate in actual battlefield conditions.

No piece of equipment is perfect, you will always have a certain number of duds or equipment malfunctions, which was factored in, but at a very favorable rate.

Also, since CMSF tracks the actual trajectory of the missile, you may have situations where the Javelin hits the tank at such an angle or specific point that the energy is deflected away from the tank resulting in little damage. This is the situation you sometimes see where a tank may require 2-3 missiles before it is actually knocked out.

When you run a test under ideal conditions, you may achieve a PK of 90-95%, although in most scenarios the PK is probably closer to 80-85%. Worse than the published numbers, but IMHO probably closer to the Javelin's real life effectiveness.

Weeeell, that or maybe the Ukrainians repaired some of their junk T-72s, equipped them with Sosna-U and export Kontakt-5 from Belarus and let those fall into the Separatist's hands to make it look like Russia supplied high end T-72s to the coal miners.
 
On a more serious note: Does Russia have a lot of old T-72 around in garages and warehouses and such which aren't getting upgraded? Or aren't they actually upgrading but rather producing new ones (given the newer models have new engines for instance),
 
I remember having read an interview with some poor sod who was arrested for DUI in Rostov and then offered to go to Donezk to repair and maintain tanks (cause he was a mechanic) for two weeks in exchange for dropped charges. The end of the song was he got captured by the Ukrainians after a column of tanks, one of which he drove, getting driven near the frontlines was ambushed. Doubt it was the same incident though, since these guys weren't supposed to fight and the crewmember didn't even know each other and weren't trained either.
 
Do you know how many AFVs were lost in that incident? From the pictures I'd say at least 3 T-72s and 1 BMP. I'd also really like to know how they were engaged. For me this is part of a bigger issue since I have real difficulties imagning what typical combat and engagements in that conflict look like, given that there is more or less parity in numbers and equipment for the most part (not like OIF for instance which was more the type of fighting CMSF tried to portray).

I remember in 2005 when BFC announced they were revamping the engine and that (heresy) the first game would be modern. Dozens of threads popped up predicting the end of BFC, yet here we are 10 years later and 5 new games have come out, 2 just in the past 12 months.

I think Steve and the gang know what they are doing.

I remember in 2005 when BFC announced they were revamping the engine and that (heresy) the first game would be modern. Dozens of threads popped up predicting the end of BFC, yet here we are 10 years later and 5 new games have come out, 2 just in the past 12 months.

I think Steve and the gang know what they are doing.

I remember in 2005 when BFC announced they were revamping the engine and that (heresy) the first game would be modern. Dozens of threads popped up predicting the end of BFC, yet here we are 10 years later and 5 new games have come out, 2 just in the past 12 months.

I think Steve and the gang know what they are doing.

I remember in 2005 when BFC announced they were revamping the engine and that (heresy) the first game would be modern. Dozens of threads popped up predicting the end of BFC, yet here we are 10 years later and 5 new games have come out, 2 just in the past 12 months.

I think Steve and the gang know what they are doing.

Stagler,
 
What in the heck is so hard to understand? The developers like their business model, they are making money (for many years more or less I assume), they ENJOY developing the product, and they
have enough customers to support that model. If you don't like that....then DON'T buy it. Just quit acting like you know better. As was stated earlier, when you ACTUALLY develop/support/maintain a game platform, and are SUCCESSFUL at it, then maybe your "opinion" would have some merit.
 
This is so like all the "experts" that said Command: Modern Naval Air Operations..... would die because it's just too expensive at $79...It' one of the best bargains in the industry.

Ignore him, he's just pissed at the number of bugs he missed in Beta.  Personally I wish they would spend my money on professional testers.

no game has a "thinking" AI simply because a "thinking AI" does not exist.
 
A computer has the "intelligence" of a toaster, it only does what it is pre-programmed to do. What you see in a game which looks like "thinking" is the program following its programming, i.e. if player does A, do plan A, if player does B, do plan B. Sometimes, you will get a random variation, such as if player does A, do plan A or B. etc.
 
Obviously the smaller the amount of variables, for example a small number of pre-made maps, a limited number of options for the player, the easier it is to program the responses so the program looks more "intelligent". That is what first person shooters and flight sims do.
 
In the end though, it is all smoke and mirrors.
 
Now, players always like to bring up the example of Chess programs, but Chess is actually a very simple game: 64 squares and 32 units. Even then, programmers have spent $ millions to program every possible response to what a player might do.
 
Now compare that to CM where even a 800x800 meter map will have 10,000 "squares", each with a hundred variation of elevation or terrain; and that does not even count the different number and types of units.
 
The CM scenario editor allows the scenario author to program the AI response in a manner which is a complex and variable as the AI in any comparable game. Is there room for improvement? Of course!, but CM has always been a work in progress.
 
Now you want to play against a "thinking" opponent?, easy, play PBEM.

no game has a "thinking" AI simply because a "thinking AI" does not exist.
 
A computer has the "intelligence" of a toaster, it only does what it is pre-programmed to do. What you see in a game which looks like "thinking" is the program following its programming, i.e. if player does A, do plan A, if player does B, do plan B. Sometimes, you will get a random variation, such as if player does A, do plan A or B. etc.
 
Obviously the smaller the amount of variables, for example a small number of pre-made maps, a limited number of options for the player, the easier it is to program the responses so the program looks more "intelligent". That is what first person shooters and flight sims do.
 
In the end though, it is all smoke and mirrors.
 
Now, players always like to bring up the example of Chess programs, but Chess is actually a very simple game: 64 squares and 32 units. Even then, programmers have spent $ millions to program every possible response to what a player might do.
 
Now compare that to CM where even a 800x800 meter map will have 10,000 "squares", each with a hundred variation of elevation or terrain; and that does not even count the different number and types of units.
 
The CM scenario editor allows the scenario author to program the AI response in a manner which is a complex and variable as the AI in any comparable game. Is there room for improvement? Of course!, but CM has always been a work in progress.
 
Now you want to play against a "thinking" opponent?, easy, play PBEM.