Tree Force-fields

[Magpie_Oz]

I'd think the detonator of the arty round would be fairly sensitive so that it didn't bury itself too far when hitting soft ground so conceivably light branches could set it off.

[LemoN]

The only problem I have with tress is that they "set off" APHE and even regular AP (which doesn't have an explosive filler). The chance of setting off an APHE charge should be nearly non-existant as the resistance offered by even solid wood isn't really enough.

AP rounds should mostly stay unaffected by trees, except if they directly hit the trunk in which case they should get a slight deflection that could possibly mess up the impact area and could even send them tumbling, greatly reducing their AP capability.

[WillLight]

The only problem I have with tress is that they "set off" APHE and even regular AP (which doesn't have an explosive filler). The chance of setting off an APHE charge should be nearly non-existant as the resistance offered by even solid wood isn't really enough.

AP rounds should mostly stay unaffected by trees, except if they directly hit the trunk in which case they should get a slight deflection that could possibly mess up the impact area and could even send them tumbling, greatly reducing their AP capability.

Agreed, we've all seen that US Army "how awesome are your weapons" video where they shoot .30 cal from a Garand right through a fairly thick tree. Tank AP should go through almost unperturbed, at most a deflection but definitely no stoppage.

[LJFHutch]

Did my own test = trees are not invulnerable:

They do seem to soak up a lot of fire though, by that I mean it's hard to get a round past a tree even when the foliage is blown off, and also that it takes a lot of fire to bring them down.

[LemoN]

This made me chuckle.

[Chainsaw]

Did my own test = trees are not invulnerable:

They do seem to soak up a lot of fire though, by that I mean it's hard to get a round past a tree even when the foliage is blown off, and also that it takes a lot of fire to bring them down.

Epic! "In war there is no such thing as overkill"

[Humbug]

Yeah, not invulnerable but they do soak up way too much damage. I just played a QB where a tree took 2 direct hits from a 105mm HE round of a StuH 42 without anything happening to it. The third round blew the branches off but the trunk still stood up and soaked up a couple more rounds. The hit box didn't really seem to have become much smaller either. It's almost like the trees are made of magnets that attract shells.

Now obviously I don't have any real life experience to back this up with but common sense tells me that it would have to be one hell of a tree to not be blown to smithereens by even one of those huge rounds.

Am I wrong?

[Gryphonne]

Part of the problem is, that as someone else already highlighted, they stop AP rounds effectively as well. Yet, AP rounds can easily pass through (lightly) armored vehicles.

[hoolaman]

Part of the problem is, that as someone else already highlighted, they stop AP rounds effectively as well. Yet, AP rounds can easily pass through (lightly) armored vehicles.

Yes this is the problem really, solid AP shot is "detonated" on trees, and not just big trunks either, a smallish branch can stop multiple AP rounds making them very very effective cover in the game. Even .50 should shred through trees which are mostly air after all, but whole bursts can be stopped dead.

[Andrew H.]

Trees in forests are pretty complicated - if you blow a hole right through a tree in forest, chances are it will fall...and then its branches will be caught in the branches of a neighboring tree at something like a 70 degree angle, with the trunk still providing cover. That's why bringing down trees in forests requires ropes and planning - you have to make if fall where there are no trees or you'll never be able to cut it up and remove it.

[GSX]

Yes this is the problem really, solid AP shot is "detonated" on trees, and not just big trunks either, a smallish branch can stop multiple AP rounds making them very very effective cover in the game. Even .50 should shred through trees which are mostly air after all, but whole bursts can be stopped dead.

This was pretty much my point and not the effects of HE rounds. However, I didn't realise that enough shots will kill a tree, guess I didn't give it enough time.

But I do think the problem remains, the AI seems to aim for the dead centre of a vehicle and so getting that tree to line up dead centre on your Sherman means your pretty much invulnerable from the front to any calibre AP shot. Well, from what I'm reading, for a few shots anyway.

[Magpie_Oz]

Trees are bloody strong.

I have cut down trees with axes and chainsaws etc and even the largest of trees does not begin to fall until you cut right through it. that is to say the trunk might be 500mm across but even if you cut it right down to 50mm the tree still stands, albeit fairly fragile. That is because trees are a series of "tubes"

What I am thinking is that if a shot hits a plate of armour it beings to penetrate and all of the metal surrounding the penetration is weakened and drawn in and eventually the plate is overcome and fails and the round passes through.

With a tree however while the round easily penetrates the "tubes" of wood it is continuously being presented with another tube that is completely unaffected by the failure of the first tube, then another then another then another.

So even though a high velocity round might punch a hole through a tree, there is still plenty of structure left to hold it up.

I have cut down a tree with an M60 MG but it took a heap of rounds and we weren't firing at anything but the tree.

[gunnergoz]

Did my own test = trees are not invulnerable:

(snip)

They do seem to soak up a lot of fire though, by that I mean it's hard to get a round past a tree even when the foliage is blown off, and also that it takes a lot of fire to bring them down.

Son, you have waaaay too much time on your hands...

[user38]

I did a truck driving course in the army. For the off road part of the course we put the trucks into 6 wheel drive low ratio and the instructor told me I should drive over the smaller trees but I had to drive around the bigger trees.

The point is, big trees are tough and should be treated with respect.

[Gryphonne]

Yadda yadda big trees respect. I'm not buying that a 10kg+ chunk of metal travelling at approximately 500-800m/s is going to get stopped dead by a tree or small branch. That may be true for a seqouia or some ancient forest, but definitely not for 90% of the European trees typically found in the countryside.

IIRC there was also a US training film on the effectiveness of .30 cal ammo, needless to say, the bullets went straight through a typical tree with ease. Now try a 75mm AP shell or even a .50 cal. On top of that, we had wooden pillboxes made from typical logs in CMx1, these were penetrated by pretty much everything. So why not trees now?

We continiously discuss armor penetration on this forum and are not amazed that some AP rounds can penetrate up to 10 centimetres of armor or more but some people suddenly believe a tree with less than ten times the density is going to pose a problem. It might throw the projectile off course, but it's not going to stop. Sometimes I don't get you guys

[Ron]

These are vintage WWII training films for US Infantry weapons. I love the deadbeat style of the narrator and his sense of humor.

Check out 4:50 for effects of a .30 cal through a tree and after through a 4" concrete wall.

Check out 1:10 for effects on a tree and concrete wall. The mortars are pretty impressive as well, even when in a bunker.

Check out 2:40 for effects of a 57mm AT on a pillbox. Later at 5:00 to see the power of a 105mm howitzer.

[Sgt Joch]

Re: HE against trees in CMBN

There are a few things to keep in mind:

1. You can't directly target trees, only area fire the action spot, so the effect of the HE is spread out over the 8x8m area;

2. The effect of fire is toned down in area fire because it is not aimed at a particular target.

Both those effects exist so that area fire is not overly destructive against enemy troops in the action spot and is consistent with what you would expect in RL. Because of that, the effect of direct HE fire against trees may appear weak, but that is because the system is geared towards simulating the effect against enemy troops, not trees. The effect of indirect HE fire seems to work better in that area.

So the broad parameters of HE fire work as they should, although again, there is always room for tweaking.

AP fire is a different issue. The issue of AFVs being able to shelter behind trees was also raised in CMSF and should be looked at in greater detail.

[Gryphonne]

is AP fire through trees going to be looked at then?

[Battlefront.com]

Yes. It's being looked at.

Steve

[Gryphonne]

Awesome! Thanks a heap! This has been the source of MAJOR frustrations

[Battlefront.com]

The situation where this comes up is pretty specific, but WHEN it comes up it definitely sucks. Here's the most likely situation:

Both shooter and target are stationary. This is the most important part. There is a tree fairly close to the shooter that is directly in the optimal LOF path. The round will absolutely hit the tree. Subsequent rounds will also hit the tree because the vector variance for high velocity guns at such ranges is almost zero, so effectively every shell will follow the same exact path provided neither the shooter nor the target move. As soon as either one moves then it's a whole 'nother ball of wax.

In real life the vehicle would either slightly change position or slightly change the right/left orientation of the gun (depends heavily on the situation) and fire again. There is no TacAI programmed for such finite, context sensitive moves because it gets the TacAI into dangerous slippery-slope territory with the player. We're not planning on adding new TacAI behavior as it is extremely time consuming and not worth the effort for the effect.

Also in real life even a huge tree would splinter and be taken out by large caliber rounds. We're looking into why this isn't happening. Bug most likely. Not sure yet.

Steve

[Gryphonne]

The situation where this comes up is pretty specific, but WHEN it comes up it definitely sucks. Here's the most likely situation:

Both shooter and target are stationary. This is the most important part. There is a tree fairly close to the shooter that is directly in the optimal LOF path. The round will absolutely hit the tree. Subsequent rounds will also hit the tree because the vector variance for high velocity guns at such ranges is almost zero, so effectively every shell will follow the same exact path provided neither the shooter nor the target move. As soon as either one moves then it's a whole 'nother ball of wax.

In real life the vehicle would either slightly change position or slightly change the right/left orientation of the gun (depends heavily on the situation) and fire again. There is no TacAI programmed for such finite, context sensitive moves because it gets the TacAI into dangerous slippery-slope territory with the player. We're not planning on adding new TacAI behavior as it is extremely time consuming and not worth the effort for the effect.

Also in real life even a huge tree would splinter and be taken out by large caliber rounds. We're looking into why this isn't happening. Bug most likely. Not sure yet.

Steve

Any values on how much wood a WW2 gun would penetrate with AP shot? And would a tree set off the HE filler with an AP shell? In any case, I hope you guys come up with some elegant solution, obviously, programming the TacAI to start maneuvering around may be a little too much of the good stuff. But yeah, at least make them destructible. I would think that a tree with an average density of 700kg/m³ shouldn't be able stop a chunk of metal flying at it with 500-900m/s, and would probably still be able to penetrate a tank behind the tree in some (most?) instances.

[Battlefront.com]

There's too many variables. The diameter of the tree would be a huge one, as would the type of wood. Shooting through cedar is very different than shooting through oak. Did the round hit straight on or just catch the outer edge? Stuff like that matters a lot. However, I think it's pretty clear that most large caliber AP rounds should cut through most trees found in Normandy most of the time, possibly with accuracy and velocity disruption.

Remember, trees can be 1 to 2 meters thick, even in Normandy. While certainly not approaching face hardened or rolled steel, it's not like we're talking about an insignificant mass.

Steve

[akd]

Any values on how much wood a WW2 gun would penetrate with AP shot? And would a tree set off the HE filler with an AP shell? In any case, I hope you guys come up with some elegant solution, obviously, programming the TacAI to start maneuvering around may be a little too much of the good stuff. But yeah, at least make them destructible. I would think that a tree with an average density of 700kg/m³ shouldn't be able stop a chunk of metal flying at it with 500-900m/s, and would probably still be able to penetrate a tank behind the tree in some (most?) instances.

You mean how much wood would a wood chuck chuck if a wood chuck could chuck wood?

Here's a baseline: .30 cal ball ammunition would penetrate 20 inches of solid oak vs. 0.3 inches of armor plate.

[gunnergoz]

You mean how much wood would a wood chuck chuck if a wood chuck could chuck wood?

Here's a baseline: .30 cal ball ammunition would penetrate 20 inches of solid oak vs. 0.3 inches of armor plate.

Yes, but just penetrating a mature (2 foot diameter) tree does not chop it down, unless you are talking about a whole lot of .30 cal bullets.