Applicability of CM:A Soviet to&e to a 1980's Central Europe game?

[Sequoia]

First off I don't have CM:A. I've read how researching the to&e for CMFI was a pain, and was curious how well the to&e for CM:A was put together, as the game wasn't done by BFC? On the other hand the producers, Snowball, may have had access to information not found in English. Anyway one of my CM dreams is to have a 1980's NATO vs Warsaw Pack game and was wondering how useful the CM:A to&e would be to such a project? 

[SimpleSimon]

The Syrian Army in Shock Force 2 is applicable actually, and you'd be surprised how little changed between 1945 and 1989. The greatest difference was in equipment. After the war the Soviet Union could mechanize most of its forces to which I think Group Soviet Forces Germany was fully mechanized. Anti-aircraft missile batteries were standard and I think just about every Motorized Rifle Division had an attached Tank Regiment. 

ToE for a Russian Rifle Division of 1944

http://niehorster.org/012_ussr/44_organ/div_rifle/44_rd.htm

ToE Russian Motor Rifle Division of 1980

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/Soviet_Motor_Rifle_DIV_1980s.svg

The basic structure didn't change much, the main difference was in quality of equipment with more ubiquitous mechanization. These formations were still relatively light on organic support, engineers, signals, recon, maintenance, hospitals, etc all remained battalions with only a single artillery regiment organic to the table. This was because artillery in the Red Army was and continued to be, pooled at a GHQ. 

Edited February 8, 2020 by SimpleSimon

[Sequoia]

Yes but in CMX 2 games we're looking at the TO&E down to the individual vehicle and man level for a battalion. I don't know the fidelity of CM:A in that regard.

[Erwin]

CMA is the same scale as all the other CM2 titles.

[Sequoia]

By fidelity I mean accuracy not the level of detail.

[SimpleSimon]

1 hour ago, Sequoia said:

Yes but in CMX 2 games we're looking at the TO&E down to the individual vehicle and man level for a battalion. I don't know the fidelity of CM:A in that regard.

Here's what I found, and it's consistent with Syrian Army organization in SF2. Motor Infantry would use BTRs or BMPs to get around, could be either depending on availability but I think BMPs would be in the minority. 

https://www.battleorder.org/rus-ussr-squad-graphics

https://www.battleorder.org/ussr-bmp-afghansky

And the Company. That website has other formations as well. Syrian organization in SF2 is entirely consistent with these tables. It'd be hard to find anything more official, and this looks reasonable enough combined with what Battlefront assembled for the game. 

Edited February 8, 2020 by SimpleSimon

[Sgt.Squarehead]

The lack of both T-64 & T-72 would pretty much rule CM:A out IMHO.....CM:SF2 would get you closer.

 

[MikeyD]

I don't believe BFC has the rights to any content of CMA that they didn't supply, themselves. I recall CMA had a Ural truck, ZU-23-2 AA and Shilka but BFC built their own for CMSF. The people figures in CMA are of a different type than standard CM figures The faces in particular map very differently. What other CMA-only vehicles are there? BTR-80, BDM-1 and BDM-2. BFC can't touch 'em.

Edited April 18, 2020 by MikeyD

[waffelmann]

Sad. A general update for this game would habe been really cool. It is an interesting scenario with interesting forces...

[Erwin]

Some of us think CMA is the most interesting title as it's so different from the other CM2 titles.  Different era obviously.  You need to d/l the user-made scenarios and campaigns as the ones that came with the game are not that great.  

[Mord]

The rights should be crowdfunded, then given to BF, then they could update it and little old CMA wouldn't be the red-headed step child anymore.

Something could be done. WTF does Snowball care? They abandoned the game about five seconds after they released it. They probably don't even remember it was made. And a dude in another thread said one of the guys had died.

 

Mord.

[IICptMillerII]

On 2/7/2020 at 3:16 PM, Sequoia said:

First off I don't have CM:A. I've read how researching the to&e for CMFI was a pain, and was curious how well the to&e for CM:A was put together, as the game wasn't done by BFC? On the other hand the producers, Snowball, may have had access to information not found in English. Anyway one of my CM dreams is to have a 1980's NATO vs Warsaw Pack game and was wondering how useful the CM:A to&e would be to such a project?

Trust me, I share the dream. However, CMA has a lot of issues that makes it not viable unfortunately. First off, it is stuck in the very old engine. Very little of the game data is compatible with the new CM engine. For example, it was possible to model swap the Syrians with the Soviets in CMSF1, but you cannot do the same in CMSF2. A lot of the artwork for CMA is also not compatible with CMSF1/2 out of the box, and requires reworking in photoshop (or another .bmp editor) to make it fit the models. I think this was done to keep the work done in CMA exclusive to that title, but I digress. 

The other main issue is a TO&E one. The Soviets only ever sent their category b and c units to Afghanistan, with category a being the best, b being slightly well less equipped, and c having mostly old worn out hand-me-downs. All of their best equipped units stayed in Europe and did not participate in the fighting, with the exception of some of their light forces like the VDV. For example, even in 1989, the only Soviet tanks in Afghanistan were the T-62, whereas most heavy Soviet divisions in Europe were equipped with much more modern and capable variants of the T-72 (T-72B obr. 1985/1989 for example), T-64 (T-64B/BV for example) and T-80 (T-80BV for example). The Soviet TO&E present in CMA is actually closer in composition to East German and Polish units in Europe (equipment wise) than it is to category a Soviet formations. 

On 2/7/2020 at 5:13 PM, SimpleSimon said:

The Syrian Army in Shock Force 2 is applicable actually

I agree with this. The Syrian army in CMSF2 is (with its top tier equipment) essentially equivalent to Soviet category a formations in 1985. The BMP-2 is the same that the Soviets operated, the mechanized infantry are largely organized similar (though in SF they use AKM's instead of the AK-74) platoons are units of 3, the self propelled artillery is the same (2S1s) and the T-72AV is essentially equivalent to the Soviet T-72B obr. 1985. Of course, there are some significant differences in the details though. One of the main examples being the ammo fired by Syrian tanks being of lesser quality than ammo that Soviet tanks were firing in the 80s. The only Syrian tanks firing high quality ammo by 1980's standards are the T-72AV TURMS-T and the T-90. Overall though, equipment-wise, the Syrians are a good fill in for the Soviets of the mid 1980's. The two biggest things they are missing as far as tactical equipment goes are T-64 and T-80 variants. The Soviets never exported either of those series of tanks in large numbers, so they are very unlikely to ever show up in CMSF2. 

The Syrians in CMSF2 could simulate an East German armored division very well though. The T-72M1 and BMP-1 in SF2 are exactly similar in quality and weapon potential to the East German's of the 80's. There are a lot of other equipment similarities as well, but I wont belabor the point. 

All that said, I still hold out hope that one day in the (distant) future we might see a CM game based during a cold war gone hot in the 80's. I would also love an updated version of CMA, but that likely isn't going to happen anytime soon, if at all. Besides all the legal/copyright issues, BFC simply has too many other projects they'r working on/have planned to carve out any more time to update the game to the new engine. The update for CMSF2 took longer and more effort than they originally expected, and I don't think they'll be looking to take on a similar project anytime soon. 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

On 4/28/2020 at 6:05 AM, IICptMillerII said:

the T-72AV is essentially equivalent to the Soviet T-72B obr. 1985.

Dude.....No! 

The T-72AV is equivalent to a T-72A with 1st generation ERA applied, or as it is better known.....The T-72AV:

The T-72B m.1985 is a rather different beast (it's a T-72B with 1st generation ERA applied):

The whole turret, under the ERA, is very different.

[IICptMillerII]

39 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Dude.....No! 

The T-72AV is equivalent to a T-72A with 1st generation ERA applied, or as it is better known.....The T-72AV:

The T-72B m.1985 is a rather different beast (it's a T-72B with 1st generation ERA applied):

The whole turret, under the ERA, is very different.

Fair point, I should have been less general in my statement. I meant more that the T-72AV in game is comparable to the T-72B in capability, not in its technical specifications. What I mean by that is, the T-72AV in SF2 has roughly equivalent fighting capability as the Soviet T-72B had in the 1980's. There are differences, yes, but as far as things like ammo fired, fire control, spotting and relative armor, it is comparable. Put another way, a well crewed company of T-72AV's in SF2 can achieve the same battlefield results as a T-72B equipped Soviet company could in the 80's. Of course, the T-72AV has more modern and lethal threats to contend with, but the overall combat performance is similar. 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

On reflection, that's not the best picture of a T-72B m.1985 that I could have chosen.....The ERA layout on that one is rather non-standard.

But not as non-standard as this one:

[Bubba883XL]

i must admit a 80's cold war theme would go down so sweet, would even things a little i'd say unlike the super force the allied forces are in shock force...

and plus, you have all those M113 to play with, and the MERC camo to do!