CMx2v4 WWII: Basic Movement Stats

[markshot]

First, yes, the title is a pun.  As this is foundational data, but it was also drawn from playing around in the CMBN first Basic Training Mission. 

I realized that one of my biggest problems is time and space.  Like last night, I was playing a small scenario of 45 minutes with 5 spatial objectives.  I realized I was running into trouble when the clock said +28m remaining and I had only completed objective #1.  Too much cautious recon (night mission).  So, I pulled out a Major Victory, but it required me for the rest of the scenario to double time it with split squads moving in leap frog bounding over watch.  And I truly finished, right as the clock struck 0m.

Thus, today, I decided to do something about my playing style.  One YouTuber had said he plans based what it would take to just walk the map.  Realizing that I had no concept of time and space, I decided to do some analysis which I will share here.  I realize that most of you ubermensch, do much more rigorous data collection, but I think this should be sufficient to get me started.

 

**********************************
***** MOVEMENT (Scout/Squad) *****
**********************************

RESTED/FIT/REGULAR SCOUTS (MIXED/OPTIMAL CONDITIONS)

Walk:     50M
Quick:   120M
Run:     140M (1t tired)
Hunt:     40M
Slow:     15M (2t tired)

RESTED/FIT/REGULAR SQUAD (MIXED/OPTIMAL CONDITIONS)

Quick:    80M (complete in 1 turn) (same final dispersion as assault)

Assault:  50M [lead team] 0M [rear team] (for long assault)
          20-25M (completes in 1 turn) (same final dispersion as assault)
          100M (completes in 3 turns)
          (linear spacing is very much a function of the waypoint placement)
          (at 30M/min, it is slower movement than manual player bounds)

---

* Squad movement standing seems 66% of scout movement.

* If there is overwatch, and the enemy is suppressed.  QUICK is probably your best way to cover ground.

* HUNT is too slow to cover a map in most time frames, and is in the same class of commands as RUN and SLOW.

* RUN is best used to sprint between cover to cover; especially as teams which find cover easier.

* ASSAULT is probably a toss up between manual squad command and TACAI coordinated.  An ASSAULT should probably be no more than 100M to avoid the squad from getting too spread out.  Additional suppressing fire advised.

Edited December 30, 2019 by markshot

[markshot]

* SLOW best used for the final set up of observation or an anti-tank weapon by infantry.

[MOS:96B2P]

6 hours ago, markshot said:

Realizing that I had no concept of time and space, I decided to do some analysis which I will share here. 

Interesting stuff.  Thanks for sharing. 

 

3 hours ago, markshot said:

* SLOW best used for the final set up of observation or an anti-tank weapon by infantry.

I will sometimes use Slow with a tight target arc for entering a building when I think the next building (behind the one being entered) contains OpFor).   

[SimpleSimon]

That's actually really interesting, since I was unsure if the small scout and recon teams didn't get tired as quickly as squads did. Since they're usually not carrying lots of ammo or heavy weapons this makes perfect sense. 

[MikeyD]

The trick to assault is to place the waypoints CLOSE TOGETHER so they will leap-frog effectively. Doing an assault command where one team dashes out of LOS of the second kind'a negates the whole premise behind one team dashing while the other lays down covering fire.

[SimpleSimon]

^^^^ Assault is a way more useful command than it's often given credit for. The basic premise is a fire-and-advance functionality that will decrease or stretch the intervals between the fire/assault teams by how you space the waypoints. 

Placing the waypoints distantly isn't too effective for most attacks as the teams will usually find their LOS interrupted by terrain/clutter. It can still be handy though for moving the entire squad without necessarily exposing the entire squad at the same time. In that way it's sort of a "staggered quick" command instead. 

 

Edited December 30, 2019 by SimpleSimon

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Combined with an 'Area Target' at short range 'Assault' can be very effective.....Just remember to give them a new target once they get to their destination. 

4 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

I will sometimes use Slow with a tight target arc for entering a building when I think the next building (behind the one being entered) contains OpFor).

After encountering a certain unit, in a certain industrial building, I now suppress the living bejesus out of any adjacent structure before I try this trick.

I'm especially careful around those that have had their connecting walls removed by the mapper.....The boundary between them can seem to act like an event horizon, much as seen with the bridge inside a buiding LOS issue, as discovered while testing 'Coup'.

Edited December 30, 2019 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Bil Hardenberger]

That's very interesting Mark.. I know I have never mapped out the rates of movement as you have done... but I'm not the anal SOB that you are.    

Bil

[Erwin]

Interesting.  When you say "Scout", do you mean a dedicated "scout unit" or the two man scout team simply split from a squad?

[markshot]

2 man squad split

[JM Stuff]

Is incredible what kind of details from all levels we can find in CMs series, everybody's like to put a touch of knowledges and is always very interresting I have the feeling to read again SOP SOI,... from my unit !

Edited December 31, 2019 by 3j2m7

[Erwin]

Related info - vehicular movement:

 

 

[Erwin]

11 hours ago, markshot said:

2 man squad split

Very useful to know.   Any chance you checked movement of a dedicated scout unit?  Would be interesting if they also get this advantage or move at regular inf pace.

[markshot]

Ha ha ha!

I would have to learn how to use the scenario editor to do that.  I used to quickly throw together test scenarios in CMx1 to test stuff.  But I don't even know the basics of the CMx2 scenario editor.  At the moment, I am reading pages of stuff to understand my Christmas presents.

Really, there are so many variables I did not consider.

Army (these were CMBN GIs)

Ground conditions

Terrain

Temperature

Fitness

Experience

---

Mainly, I was not trying to uncover any great underlying truths of the CM universe.  (We already know that when stacked against a wall CM squads exhibit "quantum tunneling".  At least, one or two idiots always end up on the wrong side of the wall.)  I was just looking at creating a basic yardstick for myself by which to pace scenarios.

---

HAPPY NEW YEARS from 台灣, 中國 (Taiwan, China!).

[grungar]

really good stuff. simple good stuff. the best stuff

[MOS:96B2P]

23 hours ago, Erwin said:

+1.  Interesting table. 

It says km/h but what does that mean in actual game terms?  So a Kubel on normal movement speed (Move) does 16 on a paved road.  I'm guessing that means 16 action spots per one minute turn?  So 16 a/m (Action spots per minute).  

[markshot]

Then, you have to measure how many degrees/second AFVs rotate.  Yes, troops pause at a way point, but pivot lots faster than a tank, and given that a tank reaches higher speeds ... the way point has proportionally a greater impact on AFVs than troops.

[Bulletpoint]

On 12/30/2019 at 12:48 PM, markshot said:

Walk:     50M
Quick:   120M

Why is the walking movement speed so slow? The average walking speed for people is 5 km/h, which means 83.3 metres per minute. And surely soldiers march a bit faster than the average.

Edited January 3, 2020 by Bulletpoint

[markshot]

I have no idea.

I was playing WEGO.  I had two units in the same square; 2 scout teams.  One I gave an order to which ran clear across the map.  The terrain covered included some road, some clear, some light forest.  I ran the turn and ended the movie phase; back to orders.  Then I used a target command from the stationary team to the moving team to measure distance.  The other end of my ruler was to the beginning of the path of the next turn's movement.

When dealing with a squad and assault, I also needed to measure to soldier bases, since the order continuation point did not tell the whole story.

I hope that helps.  Give it a try and see what you get.

[markshot]

I remember it had been easy to determine terrain types in CMx1; just move the LOS terminator over the tile.  Also, I thought there was a little window if you click on a unit, it showed you what terrain it is in.  I think the only way now is by eye balling the map, true?

[Erwin]

1 hour ago, Bulletpoint said:

Why is the walking movement speed so slow? The average walking speed for people is 5 km/h, which means 83.3 metres per minute. And surely soldiers march a bit faster than the average.

Perhaps you are thinking of "Parade March".  Based on film from the war, troops close to the front lines walk slower - more like stroll speed, and they may even be tired carrying all their gear.

[Bulletpoint]

4 minutes ago, Erwin said:

1 hour ago, Bulletpoint said:

Why is the walking movement speed so slow? The average walking speed for people is 5 km/h, which means 83.3 metres per minute. And surely soldiers march a bit faster than the average.

Perhaps you are thinking of "Parade March".  Based on film from the war, troops close to the front lines walk slower - more like stroll speed, and they may even be tired carrying all their gear.

I think careful walk would be covered by the HUNT command, and tired troops is represented by the fitness setting (and current fatigue level).

Edited January 3, 2020 by Bulletpoint

[Erwin]

I think of HUNT as very careful movement - quite slow (and tiring) as the unit expects enemy contact imminently.  If you look at film of troops walking down a road but not expecting imminent contact, it's more of a "meander" than a brisk walk.

[lsailer]

Isn't a big difference between Hunt and Move what happens if they contact the enemy?  

Hunt:  go to ground and cancel rest of movement order.

Move: Return fire, maybe go to ground or not, depending, and try to continue movement.

In a "perfect" world, any movement would have two settings, one for how fast, and another for what to do if opposed.

Remember that Commonwealth Squad Movement video?  Those scouts "hunted" very slowly, alternating from crouched walking and crawling and long spotting sessions

[SimpleSimon]

It really makes no sense to me that Move's state turns into "Quick" if the troops on it start taking fire. I'd MUCH prefer they did the same thing in hunt and just defaulted to prone/cover.