StG 44 in the upcoming CMRT module

[Aragorn2002]

31 minutes ago, DerKommissar said:

There is an increase in the ratio of SMG to rifle production. This was the same among most countries, as more expedient SMGs entered service. This was especially relevant on the Eastern Front. MP-44s being issued to Schutze must have been a rarity -- especially when considering the ubiquitous Mauser cartridge weapons. Considering it was ready to enter mass production in '42, it was never fated to become their service rifle.

I don't agree about MP-44s being issued to the troops being a rarity. The divisions I've mentioned did get their Sturm platoons (in each company) and many other divisions too. With regard to production. The average monthly MP 40 production in 1944 was 19 048. That of the StG 44 23 488. The percentage-wise increase in production for the StG 44 in 1943/1944 was also higher than that of the MP 40. The production of the StG 44 was another example of too late, too few, but it was far from a rare weapon in 1944/1945. Average availability in November 1944 for example 204 784 pieces, in December 245 938, January 1945 272 931 and February 1945 281 195. Not enough of course, but still significant numbers.

My source is Dieter Handrich's 'Sturmgewehr 44', the bible on the Sturmgewehre.

Edited September 19, 2018 by Aragorn2002

[Aragorn2002]

22 minutes ago, Jace11 said:

I found one, very rare, I tried all sorts of formations and didn't see any. Despite it being listed in the manual and on the website TOE I was beginning to think there weren't in Red Thunder. Then finally I found a Company HQ asst. that had one.

Try the Begleit infantry Battery  of the Sturmartillerie Brigade (under Armor). Someone else posted this golden tip some time ago on this forum. As I mentioned before even in the summer of 1944 some divisions already had impressive numbers of StG 44. Too bad that's not represented in the game. I hope to see them in the CMRT module though.

Edited September 19, 2018 by Aragorn2002

[DMS]

I would like to see more "typical" formations, not "elite". It's interesting to see what a platoon with 2 DPs and 20 Mosin rifles can do. I liked option "best/worst equipment" in CMSF. Best units would have some SVTs and 4 DPs, worst - only mosins and 2 DPs. (May be with AVT, SVT or PPSh instead of 2 DPs)

Sturm platoons with Stgs were "German reply" to Soviet SMG platoons in every rifle company, as I understand? Did they have Mg-42? Soviet SMG platoons had DPs and snipers.

Edited September 19, 2018 by DMS

[LukeFF]

12 hours ago, DerKommissar said:

Most countries had malfunctioning prototypes as semi auto rifles for most of the war. SVT was the original battle rifle, with its detachable mag (complete with its own nearly useless automatic variant). In Europe, at that time, it was certainly the best semi-auto.

No doubt about that. The SVT-40's predecessor - the SVT-38 - had a bunch of issues, including the very worrying tendency to have the magazine fall out(!) The SVT-40 was definitely an improvement, and had the war with Germany had not intervened, more of the nagging bugs would probably have been worked out (such as the accuracy issue). 

LOL yes, the AVT-40 was a crazy idea. A lot of SVT-40's rebuilt after the war ended up with an AVT stock, which can be noticed by the cutout on both sides of the stock for the safety switch. 

[LukeFF]

11 hours ago, DerKommissar said:

I read that MkB-42, Machine Carbine '42, was intended to replace the '98 and had a limited production run. Yet, when it entered mass production, it became a Machine Pistol.

As the story goes, that's because Hitler had forbade the development of any new rifles, so the weapon was called an MP to hide its true nature. In reality, it always was what it would eventually become - an assault rifle.

[Aragorn2002]

10 hours ago, LukeFF said:

As the story goes, that's because Hitler had forbade the development of any new rifles, so the weapon was called an MP to hide its true nature. In reality, it always was what it would eventually become - an assault rifle.

The most important thing that changed Hitler's mind was the mass production of the Russian PPS43 and the equipment of entire Russian units with it. Without Hitler the MP43 could have reached mass production a lot sooner. He feared the effect upon the production of ammunition for other infantry weapons.

[DerKommissar]

13 hours ago, LukeFF said:

No doubt about that. The SVT-40's predecessor - the SVT-38 - had a bunch of issues, including the very worrying tendency to have the magazine fall out(!) The SVT-40 was definitely an improvement, and had the war with Germany had not intervened, more of the nagging bugs would probably have been worked out (such as the accuracy issue). 

Yeah, never really got sniper variant of it. A Mosin is simply superior in that role. I guess those were more needed for battle rifles, more so than actual battle rifles. Yesterday, I watched the Barbarossa episode of World at War. I saw a lot of SVTs in the hands of Moscow's defenders, issued to just about anybody.

3 hours ago, Aragorn2002 said:

The most important thing that changed Hitler's mind was the mass production of the Russian PPS43 and the equipment of entire Russian units with it. Without Hitler the MP43 could have reached mass production a lot sooner. He feared the effect upon the production of ammunition for other infantry weapons.

I think that was a legitimate fear to have, especially in the supply situation of 42 and 43. It was also criticized for not being to launch rifle grenades, mount a bayonet. FG-42 was a very innovative weapon too,  marred by unrealistic requirements. We already discussed the G41 dilemma. I can imagine the idea of a hybrid rifle/smg that used a new cartridge may not appear attractive, in the backdrop of late '42.

In retrospective, if the MKb-42 was manufactured as a "rifle", I can imagine it could have become as ubiquitous as the MG-42. The Kar98 required much more machining and a big part of the MP-44 was stamped. It's entirely possible they could simply production greatly, like the PPS43 did. Kurz cartridge did also benefit from being easier to transport in higher quantities.

[Ts4EVER]

This thread scares me, mostly because of the apparent inability of this forum's members to actually read the post linked in the op. That is the only reason I can imagine why we still hear the old crap of "StG44s were for elite units!" in this thread even though that was debunked in the first post, basically. So, once more for all those non-readers:

The StG44 was not a weapon made for "elite" units.

It was supposed to arm the standard infantry and while the Germans did not achieve this due to the war situation, they did issue it in large numbers towards the end of the war. In fact, if they issued it to divisions, they usually gave out a large enough number to equip at least 1 platoon in each company, 2 in Volksgrenadier Companies. According to the Sturmgewehr book by Handrich, a little bit less than half of the German infantry divisions were equipped as such by the war's end. (Going from memory here). The Bulge game actually represents this quite well, which is why I am surprised this thread even exist... obviously they will carry over the ToE from Final Blitzkrieg to the Eastern Front, I see no reason why not.

Regarding some other topics that came up in this thread:

The G41 was a horrible design and had a limited production run, but it was not as rare as people seem to think. If you look at divisional reports, up to and including the summer of 1944 it is the primary automatic rifle issued to German divisions. Only in the autumn of 1944 does the G43 become more common. However, in contrast to the StG44 these rifles were seen as a stopgap measure to increase infantry firepower and were not issued in bulk. Since they used the same round as the MG42 and K98k, this was possible without complicating logistics. Usually they were issued on a 1 or 2 per squad basis, in case of Panzergrenadiers officially as the weapon of the squad leader's assistant. As the StG44 became more common and infantry divisions formed Sturm platoons, they were supposed to be pooled together as a "poor man's assault rifle" to create makeshift assault platoons, in case StG44 deliveries were not possible.

Regarding the Tokarev SVT40: This is an excellent rifle, but it is massively overrepresented in Red Thunder. It is true that the Russian produced a lot of them, but most of that production was pre-war, as well as 1941 and 1942. After that, the production of this relatively expensive rifle was reduced in favor of the PPsh41 / Mosin Nagant combo. What this means is that this rifle was basically the weapon of the "first iteration" of the Soviet Army: The one that was all but destroyed in the battles of 1941 and 1942. Not saying there were none at all around by 1944, some certainly were, but it was no longer a standard, mass issued weapon. Instead of seeing the big numbers of this rifle in Red Thunder, I would prefer to have the historical infantry organisation where one platoon in a rifle company is equipped with SMGs and the other two using the traditional rifle squad structure, as was common late in the war. This would represent the situation on the ground better. The SVT40 could show up if you select "above average" equipment.

[DerKommissar]

1 hour ago, Ts4EVER said:

This thread scares me, mostly because of the apparent inability of this forum's members to actually read the post linked in the op. That is the only reason I can imagine why we still hear the old crap of "StG44s were for elite units!" in this thread even though that was debunked in the first post, basically. So, once more for all those non-readers:

The StG44 was not a weapon made for "elite" units. Since they used the same round as the MG42 and K98k, this was possible without complicating logistics. Usually they were issued on a 1 or 2 per squad basis, in case of Panzergrenadiers officially as the weapon of the squad leader's assistant. As the StG44 became more common and infantry divisions formed Sturm platoons, they were supposed to be pooled together as a "poor man's assault rifle" to create makeshift assault platoons, in case StG44 deliveries were not possible.

On 9/19/2018 at 9:58 AM, DerKommissar said:

As for the MP 44, I always saw it as an NCO weapon. I believe the original idea was to give NCOs, and very specialized shock troops, a more versatile MP. It wasn't really designed to the tolerances of a rifle, and was therefore easier to manufacture. I think this was well presented in FB.

Pardon my reading skills, but no one is saying that MP-44s were for exclusively for elite units. That's not the discussion. The discussion is how they were produced, how they were used, their origins and their comparisons with other weapons of the time. I think a lot of modern hindsight thinking is used on these designs, and it made more sense as an SMG than a service rifle (one of the original intentions) in the context of WW2 doctrine. This is why it was issued to NCOs and shock troops, like SMGs were in other armies.

[Ts4EVER]

No it wasn't. It was issued to 1 platoon (later 2 platoons) of line infantry. The Handrich book includes the German original documents from the development process which shows that the intention was to replace smgs and rifles with it completely (initially MGs as well, but they decided against it). This is not a point to argue about, since there is actual evidence.

[Aragorn2002]

The Germans fought a poor man's war from the start. Most of their decisions were strongly influenced by their economical weakness and lack of time. The decision to make the MG the centre of a platoon didn't work anymore after close combat (within 200M) occured more and more. Bayonets, handgrenades and spades are no answer to that, only firepower in the shape of (semi) automatic weapons. At the eastern front the Germans always had a hard time to reconquer lost positions or counterattack enemy infantry, because the Russians did have that firepower at short distance. That combined with Russian tenacity in defence and skill to dig in quickly was one of the reasons why the Germans always tried to counterattack as quickly as possible. Well dug in Russian infantry with lots of SMG's were VERY difficult to dislodge. House to house fighting, fighting in woods, night fighting, all the same disparity in firepower at short distance which forced the Germans to rethink the weapons of their infantry. And to do it fast. Hence the StG 44.

Edited September 21, 2018 by Aragorn2002

[DerKommissar]

16 hours ago, Ts4EVER said:

No it wasn't. It was issued to 1 platoon (later 2 platoons) of line infantry. The Handrich book includes the German original documents from the development process which shows that the intention was to replace smgs and rifles with it completely (initially MGs as well, but they decided against it). This is not a point to argue about, since there is actual evidence.

I agree that was one of the intentions, yet they were still producing significantly more traditional rifles than MP-44s. Majority of troops were still equipped with bolt actions. Simply because they, at some point, believed that the MKb-42 would replace rifles and SMGs didn't make it so.

PPS-43 was also issued in large numbers to line infantry, even more so than the MP-44. Does that mean it was a replacement for the Mosin, does that make it a rifle?

5 hours ago, Aragorn2002 said:

Well dug in Russian infantry with lots of SMG's were VERY difficult to dislodge. House to house fighting, fighting in woods, night fighting, all the same disparity in firepower at short distance which forced the Germans to rethink the weapons of their infantry. And to do it fast. Hence the StG 44.

Indeed. The original concept of the SMG was to increase firepower in CQB. It is no surprise that the MP-44 went into serious production when such fighting became more common. Still, their doctrine relied on having more firepower at long ranges, hence the emphasis on MGs and traditional rifles. I'd think that the MP-44's purpose was to fulfill the duty of the SMG, such as it was in the Red Army, except retain accuracy just outside CQB range.

5 hours ago, Aragorn2002 said:

The Germans fought a poor man's war from the start. Most of their decisions were strongly influenced by their economical weakness and lack of time.

I think they produced a lot of overly audacious designs for someone fighting a poor man's war. They would have benefited from more cost-minded decision making. I agree that the Stg concept was conceived and to a degree tested before '45 -- the assault rifle still took more time to be perfected and catch on as a widely-accepted concept.

Most NATO nations left the war with the demand for battle rifles. Our favourite intermediate 5.56 cartridge was only introduced during the 60s. Even then, it had its critics and took a decade to reach widespread service. SMGs were still relevant until then, being perfected and produced by most NATO nations.

Why? Because full power cartridge does not work in full auto, something Germans figured out in '41. Even they went with the full-power cartridge for the G3, which has an infamously useless full-auto function. Even post-war, West Germany still didn't adopt the Stg concept and wanted a full-power service rifle.

Soviets loved the intermediate cartridge, and adopted it in with their doctrine. Not surprising, considering the Stg was made to counter their doctrine. They adopted the SKS as their service rifle, branding their Stg as an automatic rifle. It actually took a decade to perfect the AK and replace the SKS.

Virtually every army uses the Stg concept, today. In fact, we went further and shrunk down the intermediate cartridge further and now the carbines and bullpups see mass adoption. SMGs are gone, battle rifles are gone.

In '44 this wasn't the case. Every nation's doctrine accepted SMGs as CQB weapons and full powered rifles as service rifles. History shows that this was the case for Germany, as well -- and the production numbers speak louder than any futuristic ideas that was in the heads of the designers.

Does it make sense for a country fighting a poor man's war to abruptly replace all weapons and all ammunition when supply lines were at their longest? Would that be the right choice? We can play the what-if game. Say, what if the MKb-42 was adopted as the service weapon and the Stg as the concept in '42?

[Ts4EVER]

57 minutes ago, DerKommissar said:

I agree that was one of the intentions, yet they were still producing significantly more traditional rifles than MP-44s. Majority of troops were still equipped with bolt actions. Simply because they, at some point, believed that the MKb-42 would replace rifles and SMGs didn't make it so.

 

Are you living in some kind of bubble that doesn't allow reading?

Nobody is arguing that all rifles should be replaced by StG44s, but as I and others have demonstrated, the Germans did issue this weapon in bulk and by the end of the war, it was a common weapon to see in frontline infantry units. So there should be Volksgrenadier Companies with 2 assault platoons outfitted largely with StG44s. This, btw, is already the case in Final Blitzkrieg, so I am wondering what you are arguing about anyway....

[DMS]

On 9/20/2018 at 10:53 PM, Ts4EVER said:

Not saying there were none at all around by 1944, some certainly were, but it was no longer a standard, mass issued weapon. Instead of seeing the big numbers of this rifle in Red Thunder, I would prefer to have the historical infantry organisation where one platoon in a rifle company is equipped with SMGs and the other two using the traditional rifle squad structure, as was common late in the war. This would represent the situation on the ground better. The SVT40 could show up if you select "above average" equipment. 

+1.

I think SMG platoon should be given as a variant. Because I am not sure that 100% of rifle units adopted changes. SMG platoons were critisized in 1945, after end of war. (Because they are not versatile, other platoons are without SMGs and are limited in firepower in urban areas)

And squads shouldn't be so large... 8 men is the best case, not 11. In "reduced" TO&E (сокращенный штат) there were 3 8-men squads with 3 lmgs. 4 8-men squads with 1 lmg (In best units, 6 lmgs were an exeption) or 3 8-men squads. Player can just delete the odd squad.

[DMS]

On 9/21/2018 at 7:28 PM, DerKommissar said:

PPS-43 was also issued in large numbers to line infantry, even more so than the MP-44. Does that mean it was a replacement for the Mosin, does that make it a rifle?

Why do you think that there were so much PPS-43? As far as I know, PPSh-41 were in majority. For example, 32 rifle division, 8.11.44: 446 PPSh-41, 151 PPS-43. It was produced for Leningrad front mainly.

[MikeyD]

Interesting little factoid about the PPSh-41.  The barrels could be made from the Mosin-Nagant rifle. The rifle barrels were cut in half and made into two SMG barrels. The advantage of having a common 7.62 bore.

PPS-42 and 43 are both in CMRT but PPS-42 is exceedingly rare because Steve judged Bagration to be outside the... um... zone of operation, I guess, of the weapon. I can't recall the last time I spotted a PPS-42 in the game,

This conversation is whetting my appetite for CMRT again after having spent the summer working on other projects.

[Ts4EVER]

Are you sure about the PPS42? Because I seem to recall one of the Battlefront staff writing in here that it wasn't ingame, but that they removed it last second because they found out it was not used in the central part of the front.

[MikeyD]

Ach. I'm a Beta guy. So I saw it in-game That doesn't necessarily mean anybody else had, though.   I was wracking my brain to recall if it had been pulled or just given an insane rarity. I still say its in there, like Panther gun mantlet deflecting a round into the hull top. It was put into the game, that doesn't mean you'll ever actually see it.

[Lille Fiskerby]

11 hours ago, Ts4EVER said:

Are you sure about the PPS42? Because I seem to recall one of the Battlefront staff writing in here that it wasn't ingame, but that they removed it last second because they found out it was not used in the central part of the front.

I have only seen the PPS43 in the game, usually 6-7 in one platoon (regular soviet rifle platoon).

7 hours ago, MikeyD said:

I still say its in there, like Panther gun mantlet deflecting a round into the hull top. It was put into the game, that doesn't mean you'll ever actually see it.

If you mean what some call the "shot trap" I have experienced this just one time, a panther A early destroyed by a ZIS-3 gun, that from hundreds of hours of play.

[Warts 'n' all]

The "shot trap" doesn't occur that often in my games. But it is fun when it happens, providing I'm not playing as the Jerries.

[Ts4EVER]

I never saw the PPS42 ingame either. That being said, at the scale and graphical fidelity of Combat Mission, the difference would be completely unnoticable. I work on the BF2 mod "Forgotten Hope 2" and for reference, this is how the PPS42 and 43 look in our game:

 

[DMS]

I remember at least 1 ricochete from Panther mantlet! By T-34-85. I was surprised, as I thought that DM is simplier.

[DerKommissar]

On 9/22/2018 at 1:57 PM, DMS said:

Why do you think that there were so much PPS-43? As far as I know, PPSh-41 were in majority. For example, 32 rifle division, 8.11.44: 446 PPSh-41, 151 PPS-43. It was produced for Leningrad front mainly.

Yeah, I reviewed that. During Bagration, most would be PPSh-41. Despite the ease of producing PPS-43, by '43, they already had a crazy amount of factories pumping out PPSh-41s. They still made around 2 million of them, I'm guessing we'll see more of them in Berlin and Budapest when they appear in the expansion.

[Bulletpoint]

 

On 9/23/2018 at 5:38 AM, MikeyD said:

I still say its in there, like Panther gun mantlet deflecting a round into the hull top. It was put into the game, that doesn't mean you'll ever actually see it.

 

On 9/23/2018 at 12:49 PM, Lille Fiskerby said:

If you mean what some call the "shot trap" I have experienced this just one time, a panther A early destroyed by a ZIS-3 gun, that from hundreds of hours of play.

 

It actually happens very often. We just didn't notice it before we got the hit decals. Try to notice shots that make a decal on the lower part of the mantlet and on the top hull at the same time. You'll find it happens very frequently.

Never seen such a hit penetrate, though. Never. And I think that's a bug somehow. Because the Panther top hull is only 16mm thick...

[JoMac]

5 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

It actually happens very often. We just didn't notice it before we got the hit decals. Try to notice shots that make a decal on the lower part of the mantlet and on the top hull at the same time. You'll find it happens very frequently.

Never seen such a hit penetrate, though. Never. And I think that's a bug somehow. Because the Panther top hull is only 16mm thick...

Yeah, I remember we had this discussion once before...

I also agree and see a lot of these Panther Lower Turret Hits that Ricochet into the Upper Hull, but with no penetration.