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      Special Upgrade 4 Tech Tips   12/27/2016

      Hi all! Now that Upgrade 4 is out and about in large quantities we have now discovered a few SNAFUs that happen out in the scary, real world that is home computing.  Fortunately the rate of problems is extremely small and so far most are easily worked around.  We've identified a few issues that have similar causes which we have clear instructions for work arounds here they are: 1.  CMRT Windows customers need to re-license their original key.  This is a result of improvements to the licensing system which CMBN, CMBS, and CMFB are already using.  To do this launch CMRT with the Upgrade and the first time enter your Engine 4 key.  Exit and then use the "Activate New Products" shortcut in your CMRT folder, then enter your Engine 3 license key.  That should do the trick. 2.  CMRT and CMBN MacOS customers have a similar situation as #2, however the "Activate New Products" is inside the Documents folder in their respective CM folders.  For CMBN you have to go through the process described above for each of your license keys.  There is no special order to follow. 3.  For CMBS and CMFB customers, you need to use the Activate New Products shortcut and enter your Upgrade 4 key.  If you launch the game and see a screen that says "LICENSE FAILURE: Base Game 4.0 is required." that is an indication you haven't yet gone through that procedure.  Provided you had a properly functioning copy before installing the Upgrade, that should be all you need to do.  If in the future you have to install from scratch on a new system you'll need to do the same procedure for both your original license key and your Upgrade 4.0 key. 4.  There's always a weird one and here it is.  A few Windows users are not getting "Activate New Products" shortcuts created during installation.  Apparently anti-virus software is preventing the installer from doing its job.  This might not be a problem right now, but it will prove to be an issue at some point in the future.  The solution is to create your own shortcut using the following steps: Disable your anti-virus software before you do anything. Go to your Desktop, right click on the Desktop itself, select NEW->SHORTCUT, use BROWSE to locate the CM EXE that you are trying to fix. The location is then written out. After it type in a single space and then paste this:

      -showui

      Click NEXT and give your new Shortcut a name (doesn't matter what). Confirm that and you're done. Double click on the new Shortcut and you should be prompted to license whatever it is you need to license. At this time we have not identified any issues that have not been worked around.  Let's hope it stays that way Steve
    • Battlefront.com

      Forum Reorganization   10/12/2017

      We've reorganized our Combat Mission Forums to reflect the fact that most of you are now running Engine 4 and that means you're all using the same basic code.  Because of that, there's no good reason to have the discussion about Combat Mission spread out over 5 separate sets of Forums.  There is now one General Discussion area with Tech Support and Scenario/Mod Tips sub forums.  The Family specific Tech Support Forums have been moved to a new CM2 Archives area and frozen in place. You might also notice we dropped the "x" from distinguishing between the first generation of CM games and the second.  The "x" was reluctantly adopted back in 2005 or so because at the time we had the original three CM games on European store shelves entitled CM1, CM2, and CM3 (CMBO, CMBB, and CMAK).  We didn't want to cause confusion so we added the "x".  Time has moved on and we have to, so the "x" is now gone from our public vocabulary as it has been from our private vocabulary for quite a while already.  Side note, Charles *NEVER* used the "x" so now we're all speaking the same language as him.  Which is important since he is the one programming them
robertiv

How accurate *is* CMBS?

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Or as I have posted more than once, "It was a big war and just about anything you can imagine likely happened at one time or another. Doesn't mean that it happened more than once though."

Michael

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Hi,

On ‎23‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 9:22 PM, Vergeltungswaffe said:

To me the immersion is in taking it very slow. Giving your troops time to spot potential targets and then dealing with them in the sneakiest possible way.  Keeping casualties to an absolute minimum (in pbem or vs the AI) is satisfying imho.

Agreed :)

In all versions of CM. 

All the best,

Kip.

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On January 23, 2018 at 1:22 PM, Vergeltungswaffe said:

To me the immersion is in taking it very slow. Giving your troops time to spot potential targets and then dealing with them in the sneakiest possible way.  Keeping casualties to an absolute minimum (in pbem or vs the AI) is satisfying imho.

I'd go along with this too.

:)

Michael

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On 2/7/2018 at 3:25 AM, Battlefront.com said:

Step two is to prove there's something to be concerned about.  Step three is to try and quantify what, if any, problem there is.  Step four is to try and isolate what factors may or may not have an influence on the outcome.  Step five is to propose a remedy.

CMBS setup

12 T-90As vs 12 spotters and 12 Paladins, firing Excaliburs. Three runs in three columns. Damage indicates only tracks damage as even direct hits are able to damage no module but tracks (though one can destroy the vehicle outright).

  • destroyed 1 2 1
  • immobilized 5 1 2
  • red circle 1 0 1
  • yellow circle 0 2 3
  • yellow square 2 1 1
  • no damage 3 6 4

Penetrations / Direct hits 1/3 2/3 1/3

Reality check source

Who Says Dumb Artillery Cannot Kill Armor by Maj. (Ret.) George A. Durham, Field Artillery Journal, Nov-Dec 2002, results of the four year US Army study for 155 HEs

Effect of a direct hit:

  • Real-life: "A direct hit with an HE round with a PD fuze consistently destroyed the various target vehicle" - I assume they mean 100% destruction
  • CM - 4/9 ~44% destruction

Effect of a near miss:

  • Real-life: "155-mm rounds that impact within 30 meters cause considerable damage". I'd say from the context and photos by considerable they mean enough damage to take the tank out of battle though it may be available for further out-of-battle repairs. Out-of-battle repairs would be out of the CM context so they equal to total kills.

  • CM:

    • The damage model provides for track damage only - no damage to gun, targeting etc. whatsoever. I didn't test with other vehicles but it may be CM engine models the damage only for penetrations. I.e. the engine first calculates whether the projectile is able to penetrate and IF it penetrated CM calculates the damage it may cause inside. It may be true for all the armour present in the game or it may be limited to ERA-equipped vehicles and/or tanks/heavy armour. Moreover I saw cases when a projectile hits ERA (text label) then it "goes though the tank", creates the crated and disabled the tracks.

    • Track-damage - approximate meters, except for 2-3 cases all craters were at the sides of the vehicle

      • 1-2m - immobilized

      • 3-4m - red circle / yellow circle / yellow square

      • 5-6m+ - no damage whatsoever

@Battlefront.com, does it qualify for a steps 2-3-4? To propose a remedy one has to know how the engine works inside. Or it will be wild dreaming.

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By the way, instant ATGM launch acquisition works for Javelin teams as well. But what's the real life story behind it? Javelin's regular CLU does not have a laser rangefinder to set off LWRs, Javelin launch is undetectable by Doppler radars at all reasonable launch ranges... So what's the magic that allows CMBS tanks to know they're fired upon when real life tanks do not know?

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Description:

A bit different setup to speed up testing - 100 experiments in five batches of 20 each:

  • All tubes and spotters are Elite
  • Fire mission is preplanned to the points where tanks are
  • Mission effect is set to General, I assume it denotes something like Variable-Time vs. Point-Detonation, HE vs. HEFRAG

Results:

  • Direct hits 3 4 10 6 7
  • Module damage 1 0 4 0 1
  • Knock-outs 1 2 6 4 3

Analysis:

  • Unlike previous tests I had module damage here - weapons, smoke launchers, targeting etc.
  • If direct hit does not result in the module damage then it resulted in severe tracks damage though ALWAYS a step or two short of total immobilization. I didn't count tracks as modules in the table so these cases are reflected in direct hits less module damage and knock-outs.
  • Comparing to the 100% of severe damage from the direct hits as given in the Field Artillery article I gave above we'll have different results depending on what we count as severe damage in CMBS context:
    • If we equal knock-outs AND module damage AND severe tracks damage to "severe damage" then 100% of direct hits resulted in severe damage
    • If we count knock-outs AND module damage as severe damage then 22/30=73% of direct hits resulted in severe damage
    • If we use only knock-outs then we have only 53% of direct hits
  • Since I used different experience level and point fire command instead of direct aiming the ratio of shots to direct hits is not comparable to the first data set.
  • Near miss NEVER results in module damage - only tracks damage. I didn't do all distance measurements between tanks and points of impact in near misses but a rule of thumb is:
    • Light tracks damage starts at ~8m from the tank
    • Total immobilization requires 1-2-3 meters
    • In-between those two we have varying degrees of track damage

IMHO:

  • All non-airburst direct hits from 155mm HE should result in total knock-outs - whether PD or delayed. Arguments:
    • All direct 155mm HE hits are named as lethal for tanks in "Who Says Dumb Artillery Cannot Kill Armor" by Maj. (Ret.) George A. Durham, Field Artillery Journal, Nov-Dec 2002
    • Even at 10 feet airburst for each M107 there are three fragment penetrations for 2" RHA plate. Source: Report on protection from fragments from HE ammunition by Aberdeen Proving Grounds of 1961. At point detonation there should tens of them with much higher energies. I figure even Abrams top of the nose should have multiple perforations save turret or engine compartment
    • Assorted Russian language sources:
      • Krasnopol 152/155mm HE testing. Krasnopol is a Russian equivalent of Excalibur
      • WWII tests of ML-20 152mm howitzer
  • Near misses within 10/20/30m should result in total immobilization AND considerable module damage BUT NO crew casualties. Arguments:
    • Field Artillery Journal gives 30m as "considerable damage" distance
    • Russian 152mm HE damage tables give 20m as an equivalent distance
    • Judging from "Report on protection..." give 6-10m as the distance with enough fragments to penetrate 25-30mm RHA; tracks and wheels are not RHA but side/back tank armour is thicker
Edited by IMHO

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2 hours ago, IMHO said:
  • Near misses within 10/20/30m should result in total immobilization AND considerable module damage BUT NO crew casualties. Arguments:
    • Field Artillery Journal gives 30m as "considerable damage" distance
    • Russian 152mm HE damage tables give 20m as an equivalent distance
    • Judging from "Report on protection..." give 6-10m as the distance with enough fragments to penetrate 25-30mm RHA; tracks and wheels are not RHA but side/back tank armour is thicker

I'd contend that this point needs some slight change in wording - Near misses within 10/20/30m should sometimes result in total immobilization and/or considerable module damage.

From my investigations before the amount of damage and what gets hit will be highly variable - especially as you get further and further away.

Good work though, I love the data!

2 hours ago, IMHO said:
  • Krasnopol 152/155mm HE testing. Krasnopol is a Russian equivalent of Excalibur
  • WWII tests of ML-20 152mm howitzer

Do you have a link to these sources?  I'd love to take a look

 

 

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49 minutes ago, HerrTom said:

I'd contend that this point needs some slight change in wording - Near misses within 10/20/30m should sometimes result in total immobilization and/or considerable module damage.

You may well be right.There's some hard data in "Report on protection..." - they have the number of penetrations for M107 at 20 and 50 feet against different armour thickness. So it gives the number of fragments with different energy levels. Can be extra/interpolated.

49 minutes ago, HerrTom said:

Do you have a link to these sources?  I'd love to take a look

  1. I've gone through good WWII-era ML-20 data but it was quite a time ago. They specifically tested HE and HEFRAGs against German armour. I don't remember where I took the reports. Most interesting were PzV and PzVI tests.
  2. For Krasnopol/Excalibur there're some show-off vids against tank targets.

Overall it's also proved by Haiduk's Lostarmor pics. And here are the pics from the Field Artillery Journal.

Screen Shot 2018-02-10 at 05.53.04.png

Screen Shot 2018-02-10 at 05.52.54.png

Screen Shot 2018-02-10 at 05.52.42.png

Screen Shot 2018-02-10 at 05.52.25.png

Screen Shot 2018-02-10 at 05.52.00.png

Edited by IMHO

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I don't think this game does an adequate job simulating non-kinetic effects behind armor. Meaning, it doesn't show when the tank gets its bell rung.

A massive HE hit ("massive" meaning a 6" shell or thereabouts) would have a huge effect on the various modules inside a tank. By "module" I mean computers, sights, hydraulic fittings, crew members, fuel lines, etc. Tanks are designed to resist a lot of flying metal and other effects. At a certain point, that resistance is overcome.

Solid-state circuitry, in hardened containers, on isolation mounts, go a long way towards adding to the resistance to shock. But, a big hit? Yeah.

The problem is twofold: first, show quantitative effects from real-world examples...which are provable and sourced; second, show how the game deviates from this.

It seems like some progress is being made towards the first. (The Ft. Sill tests and HerrTom's work). The second is also getting some gradual progress.

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@c3k, except the papers I've referred to I know of Danish Army Artillery School and Defence Research Service experiments. When I said

22 hours ago, IMHO said:

BUT NO crew casualties

I was referring to their results. They put M107 and BAE L15 155mm HE at 1-1.5m from a decommissioned Centurion hull and used accelerometers and barometers to measure the effects in multiple tests. The hull was not penetrated and the "crew" survived albeit with a temporary suppression. Everything on the outside was ripped off - read the damage to the modules was extensive. Though 1.0-1.5 is QUITE A NEAR miss so I didn't put the research as a source initially. There's an article about the experiments but it's quite scant unfortunately - http://www.patriotfiles.com/archive/danskpanser/Artikler/Destruerede_kampvogne_for_skud_igen.htm

2 hours ago, c3k said:

The second is also getting some gradual progress.

It would be interesting to hear from @Battlefront.com. I'm sure development pipeline is kept to its fullest as it always happens so it would be good to know Steve's thoughts.

PS And thoughts about BFC choice between "realism" and fun as well. I'll do some testing with instant detection of ATGM launchers but if they go the way I believe they will than this together with considerably higher damager from artillery barrages will take away a certain "dynamism" from the game. I believe the cost of rushing in armour will increase considerably and the game may end up looking the way real Syria, Yemeni wars are. Not like Rumsfeld doctrine and more like Israel deciding to back down from Lebanon due to high costs.

Edited by IMHO

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47 minutes ago, IMHO said:

@c3k, except the papers I've referred to I know of Danish Army Artillery School and Defence Research Service experiments. When I said

I was referring to their results. They put M107 and BAE L15 155mm HE at 1-1.5m from a decommissioned Centurion hull and used accelerometers and barometers to measure the effects in multiple tests. The hull was not penetrated and the "crew" survived albeit with a temporary suppression. Everything on the outside was ripped off - read the damage to the modules was extensive. Though 1.0-1.5 is QUITE A NEAR miss so I didn't put the research as a source initially. There's an article about the experiments but it's quite scant unfortunately - http://www.patriotfiles.com/archive/danskpanser/Artikler/Destruerede_kampvogne_for_skud_igen.htm

It would be interesting to hear from @Battlefront.com. I'm sure development pipeline is kept to its fullest as it always happens so it would be good to know Steve's thoughts.

PS And thoughts about BFC choice between "realism" and fun as well. I'll do some testing with instant detection of ATGM launchers but if they go the way I believe they will than this together with considerably higher damager from artillery barrages will take away a certain "dynamism" from the game. I believe the cost of rushing in armour will increase considerably and the game may end up looking the way real Syria, Yemeni wars are. Not like Rumsfeld doctrine and more like Israel deciding to back down from Lebanon due to high costs.

My Danish is quite poor. Other than "Hans Christian Andersen", it is non-existent. ;) I'm therefore limited to looking at the pictures of the Centurion and wondering about the cool vowels.

The pictures start with the tank missing its track. That prevents drawing any conclusions about track damage. I note the shell on the ground: is that where it was detonated?

The roadwheels and return rollers appear functional, post-detonation.

The only apparent damage is some sheet-metal panniers and storage bins being torn off...hardly "Everything on the outside was ripped off". Again, I'm just going by the two pictures.

Smoke Grenade launchers seem fine. The armored housings for sights seem fine. Barrel and fume extractor (which is thin metal) seem fine.

Without understanding the article, I cannot tell what it says about internal subsystem damage.

 

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