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Bil Hardenberger

CMRT - BETA AAR - Soviet Side

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Forget about the Hetzer in that picture or the hit decals. The important detail is he's sitting in a turnip field! :D

Make salad, not war!

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Oh so the Hit Decals are visible for both sides, thats interesting. I think it might be a little Gamy to judge the Enemy Armor status from holes your troops couldnt really spot, but I still dig it.

Still pretty Excited that the Rush for Gelb happened and worked. And generally very much looking forward to seeing the Rest of this AAR. (and the Release. Give me the Release!!! )

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Bil how long ago did you call the plane in, or does it just fly in when it wants on its own through the game?

Vin, it comes in on its own.. its quite frustrating too, never to your schedule, and often it hits friendly forces. But I love the way it feels in-game, and now that AAA can attempt to keep aircraft at bay air is in its proper place IMO.

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Oh so the Hit Decals are visible for both sides, thats interesting. I think it might be a little Gamy to judge the Enemy Armor status from holes your troops couldnt really spot, but I still dig it.

I agree some FOW would not go astray as far as hit decals are concerned... still, they add tremendously to the game, and I was a huge skeptic when they were announced, but the way they work in game is amazing. Maybe in the next iteration some FOW for hit decals can be added.

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I agree some FOW would not go astray as far as hit decals are concerned... still, they add tremendously to the game, and I was a huge skeptic when they were announced, but the way they work in game is amazing. Maybe in the next iteration some FOW for hit decals can be added.

The issue here is the game considers the Hetzer effectively spotted. So how then to narrow down what "spotted" means in terms of when the hit decals are/aren't shown? I'm not sure there is an easy way for the game engine to show one element and not another until a separate set of spotting conditions are met.

Agree that it would be nice if that could happen, but like Bil... overall it's a plus to the game even if there is a rough edge or two.

Steve

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The issue here is the game considers the Hetzer effectively spotted. So how then to narrow down what "spotted" means in terms of when the hit decals are/aren't shown? I'm not sure there is an easy way for the game engine to show one element and not another until a separate set of spotting conditions are met.

Agree that it would be nice if that could happen, but like Bil... overall it's a plus to the game even if there is a rough edge or two.

Steve

If it is at some point possible to have (more) different sets of spotting conditions for the same target, that would open up the possibility of misspotting something (obviously, it's a Tiger....), which would be ace. I say "more" because there's already a threshold/different criteria for "tentative spot" that's lower than a full targetable spot.

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I don't know how Aircraft are handled in CMx2 ( just started playing around with CM:BN ), but can they strafe say a column of vehicles Inf Units or is fire concentrated only on same and adjecent Action Spots.

ex...Can one Aircraft strafe a platoon worth of Soft-Skin Vehicles or Inf Units moving down a road or fields about 25 meters apart from one another.

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I don't know how Aircraft are handled in CMx2 ( just started playing around with CM:BN ), but can they strafe say a column of vehicles Inf Units or is fire concentrated only on same and adjecent Action Spots.

ex...Can one Aircraft strafe a platoon worth of Soft-Skin Vehicles or Inf Units moving down a road or fields about 25 meters apart from one another.

All the videos I've seen which have presented aircraft gun attacks have been that "diving column of lead" which you see in Bil's vid. Should be easy to set up a test in the scenario editor though...

[there is some scurrying]

Well, looks like probably not. The bursts seem to be concentrated on about a 1x5 Action Spot strip, with the plane "Coming around" when it's not actually firing, so no one burst will ever take out "an entire column". I had several trucks and jeeps, escorted by M8s parked in a long line on some open grass and set the big German FW on 'em as preplanned 200m radius strikes at T1, 5 minutes and 10 minute delays. Didn't bother watching past minute 5. Easy to set up if you want to take a gander yourself.

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Thanx for the info, Womble.

Yeah, I was hoping there was a possibility for a plane to also make low level strafing runs ( shooting 2-3 bursts ) having the ability to damage Units in column...but, as you say it may not be the case.

It would be nice if a plane essentially has a couple options; it could attack one or more units that occupy the same or adjucent Action Spot -or- attack several units strung out over several Action Spots.

I guess future test runs are in order....

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The issue here is the game considers the Hetzer effectively spotted. So how then to narrow down what "spotted" means in terms of when the hit decals are/aren't shown? I'm not sure there is an easy way for the game engine to show one element and not another until a separate set of spotting conditions are met.

Agree that it would be nice if that could happen, but like Bil... overall it's a plus to the game even if there is a rough edge or two.

Steve

Can a crewmember in a tank that has been penetrated spot through the hole?

I know it sounds silly, but I remember the report of the bug where the tiger gunner (?) couldn't spot because he was sitting sideways in the turret and not looking through the telescope.

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Thanx for the info, Womble.

Yeah, I was hoping there was a possibility for a plane to also make low level strafing runs ( shooting 2-3 bursts ) having the ability to damage Units in column...but, as you say it may not be the case.

I think it does an okay job now, if your target has "proper" dispersion in its column.

It would be nice if a plane essentially has a couple options; it could attack one or more units that occupy the same or adjucent Action Spot -or- attack several units strung out over several Action Spots.

The fire is already spread out over (about - I was just "eyeballing" the spread, having no real way to properly judge it in the situation I was watching) a 40m long box. If you smeared it out much further, there's a much better chance of missing everything, rather than killing one thing for sure. Yes, it's probably overkill on softskinned vehicles, but much less so on harder targets, and that's a tough call to ask an AI to make.

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I think it does an okay job now, if your target has "proper" dispersion in its column.

The fire is already spread out over (about - I was just "eyeballing" the spread, having no real way to properly judge it in the situation I was watching) a 40m long box.

If you smeared it out much further, there's a much better chance of missing everything, rather than killing one thing for sure. Yes, it's probably overkill on softskinned vehicles, but much less so on harder targets, and that's a tough call to ask an AI to make.

Ok, 40m long box does seem reasonable enough, and as you say, anything longer there is a good possibility of doing less damage to many units.

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Can a crewmember in a tank that has been penetrated spot through the hole?

I know it sounds silly, but I remember the report of the bug where the tiger gunner (?) couldn't spot because he was sitting sideways in the turret and not looking through the telescope.

Heh... no. The hole is not literally simulated (i.e. polygons are affected) like periscopes or other things. Plus, the particular "stations" in a vehicle are explicitly defined and assigned values for the system to use in it's various calculations. Nothing like that is generated on the fly.

Steve

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Heh... no. The hole is not literally simulated (i.e. polygons are affected) like periscopes or other things. Plus, the particular "stations" in a vehicle are explicitly defined and assigned values for the system to use in it's various calculations. Nothing like that is generated on the fly.

Steve

Thanks for the explanation.

I guess that means that firing personal weapons through the hole would be right out as well. :(

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BLAU

The UI gun that I have had my eyes on for the past few turns.. well I found out the hard way that it's a flak gun. Good information to know. Well positioned too.

12918562365_d37b60b2c5_b.jpg

Also on Blau, that damned flamethrower took down two more of my guys, but at least I got the guy with the tanks on his back and his assistant was cowering at turn end. That was a tough team, I hope Elvis nominates them for a decoration... he has my respect for how he handled them. Bravo Elvis.

The good news is that other than the flamethrower team Blau seems to have been abandoned, though I still have a few more buildings to look at.

GELB

Near Gelb my T34-85 eased into position.. but seems to be just shy of spotting the enemy tanks. It still seems to be unspotted, I may need to ease it forward just a little more to spot those panzers.

12918562235_5046f9d667_b.jpg

ISU-122s

Moving on up...

12918976154_32f9e4917a_b.jpg

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Bil, thanks for your effort in putting this AAR together. Very nicely done, and it is a great experience seeing real Soviet tactics in action. Although it would have been better if your tanks and force could have exited the map past GELB rather than having to hang out there.

Those screenshots of the Soviet landscape look amazing in movie mode. GeorgeMC did a great job with the ambiance.

In another thread there is discussion of the fact that the Soviet tanks operated under an SOP in a combat environment such as this, that dictated that they stay buttoned up.

What do you think about this? Was wondering if you would consider buttoning all of your tanks for the remainder of the scenario to showcase this limitation.

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In another thread there is discussion of the fact that the Soviet tanks operated under an SOP in a combat environment such as this, that dictated that they stay buttoned up.

What do you think about this? Was wondering if you would consider buttoning all of your tanks for the remainder of the scenario to showcase this limitation.

I will promise to keep one of mu ISU-122s buttoned for the rest of the game, how's that? ;)

I am not convinced... can someone show me where that was indeed ordered for all Russian tanks to be buttoned up when in combat? Something period with links to a Russian manual or order would be great.

After that we can have the discussion.. but as I see it my armor is already at a severe disadvantage regards spotting as it is.

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Well, the KV-1 turret hatch was *not* over the commander's station. The Commander's cupola on KV-1s, SU-85 and SU-122 don't open (check 'em in the game). The commander has to move to the rear superstructure hatch in the opposite corner of the fighting compartment to poke his head out. Those are all mid-war designs, though. Late war SU-85/100, T34 and IS heavies all got drum cupolas with top hatches. I don't know if anyone gave official approval for fighting heads-up.

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