sburke Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 That might be your opinion. My opinion is, the UI is the worst I've seen in a very long time. Not trying to overstate things or be dramatic, that's just how I feel. Thankfully, the terribleness of the UI is made up for by the tasty, cream filled center of the game. I'm not so sure that it's a "disgruntled minority" at all. The number of people complaining about various UI issues on this very board seems to be fairly large. Consider the number of people who own the game and are not on this board (or are complaining about issues on other boards). Then consider the people who didn't buy the game at all because of the "clunky" nature of the UI in the demo (or even in past games, since the UI is basically a carryover from CMSF). It's quite possible that the people who feel these issues are pretty bad outnumbers the people who think the game is great. It's hard to say without hard numbers. But even if the people who think there are problems ARE a minority, does that make their opinion any less valid? Agreed. But I maintain that this is not an either/or proposition. Addressing these issues early in the development process requires LESS time/work/energy than fixing them after everything has been coded. I think the biggest problem here is that we're saddled with poor design decisions that were made 6+ years ago (during the development of CMSF). This far down the road, it's far too late to change course. This is one of those arguments that neither side can really make. We have absolutley no data on how many people are bothered by the UI and of those how many rate UI issues as important. Could be a lot, could be just the people who have been vocal about it. Nobody knows. Regardless of that I would agree, I don't think numbers are that important. If there are improvements that can be made in the UI that are helpful no matter what kind of programming is required, now is a good time to suggest them if Steve is already wanting to take that on. BFC will decide what makes sense for them and the changes they already are considering and how much time they want to invest. In that sense I wholeheartedly agree with folks making those suggestions. That being said, I don't necessarily agree that the UI is horrible or even bad. I have heard the complaints and a lot of them leave me scratching my head. The critiques of the game, good or bad are subjective. To say the UI is bad (or good) is not a universal statement, it just means it works or not for you. If by adopting some of the input, BFC can make it work for more people, it's a win for all, but I would shy away from broad ranging statements about how bad it is or how many folks do or don't like it. That doesn't help anyone and there is no way of quantifying any of that anyway. Getting back to the review, I'd have to say I don't like it either. 73? Geez I can't imagine what a comparable game rating a 90 would require. Give me a massage while providing me a virtual holographic tour of battlefield tactics as my tutorial? wtf? I am with Michael Ivan on this, if it kept the reviewer on the edge of his seat, he must've popped some valium prior to writing the review as it doesn't reflect that in the rating. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejetset Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Well. If the game had scored a 90%+ rating in PC Gamer ... none of us would probably like it. Men of War, Total War Series etc .... how many of us play those games?? For me it's Combat Mission all the way. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyrano Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 I here speak for no one other than myself. I am thinking of the worst UI I have ever encountered. It is in a currently-available wargame. It made me so angry that I stopped playing this game which covers an era I like a great deal. The CM:BN UI is not a tiny fraction as bad as the UI of which I am thinking. It has its softer moments, but I find it basically sound. Now that the clearly subjective matter of what constitutes UI "greatness" has been disposed of, let us return to the question of what we expected from a magazine that spends its time ogling the next FPS-challenged shooter from [iNSERT DEVELOPER HERE]. Best, Jim "Cyrano" :/7) P.S.: Look upon a world where the only indie development we speak of is Angry Birds and Braid and DESPAIR!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Mr. Griswold Well your opinion is roughly worth the same as mine....just about nothing but lets kill some time shall we? "Just how I feel" automatically makes this an emotional argument, which it should not be. How you feel is a product of brain chemistry built on a foundation of historical stimuli and perception. To sum it all up, like opinion...nothing. "The worst UI I have seen in a long time"...seriously....get out more and take the tierra off, this UI has some rough spots but "worst ever"? Let's talk modern industry standard to which you cling so tightly for a moment, the mighty FPS and here I am talking a just released big production number getting 9.5s on reviews. Why is it I still have to dislocate a f@!kin finger to get my virtual ass to crouch. This little UI issue has been a pain since Doom but I don't see you outside Id Software with a sign. You work in the software industry. Well I am impressed. I will give you the point to assume it is somewhere in development and not a call center or the sanitation engineering dept. Your contribution based on your background is and I quote: "So, I think I might know a little bit about which I speak. Doing it right the first time is always preferable to doing it right the second time." Wow, I am really impressed at the state of the modern software industry. A guy who builds freakin decks for a living can drop that nugget and at least he might lose a finger if he screws up. Internet Sparring 101; when in doubt run to the strawman. No I was using the narrative of the Idiot actually. A common practice dating back to Greek philosophy was to couch arguments between (usually) three characters. The teacher (normally trying to convince the audience of a point), the student (representing the open minded masses who throughout the discussion achieve understanding) and the idiot or fool (representing the current view of things). You can decide where you fit into that equation. Numbers of Disgruntled. I am a bored guy sometimes so I actually counted and assessed the responses on the "what do you think" thread a few weeks after release and the count was 90 unabashed positive responses and 11 negative ones. So you must be talking about the Silent Majority who seeth in the darkness at the injustice of this game. Luckily they have a few very vocal reps. "Addressing these issues early in the development process requires LESS time/work/energy than fixing them after everything has been coded. I think the biggest problem here is that we're saddled with poor design decisions that were made 6+ years ago (during the development of CMSF). This far down the road, it's far too late to change course". And now we come to the crux...."If I was running this show, let me tell you where they all went wrong". Well you are not and BFC has survived in a niche market for over a decade and from all accounts are making a pretty good run of it. When you get to the same point send them a resume. At the end of the day they have success and a good product, which btw is what they tend to let speak for them. UI, needs some improvement...got it, thank you. Now call me a fanboi and we can all move on. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker765 Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 This all seems very familiar. A review comes out that isn't as favorable as some would like. The reviewer is insulted and then the publication is dismissed. It reminds me of: http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=75870 Indie game development is doing great nowadays. You have games like Angry Birds for the masses. Braid for puzzle platformers. Minecraft for builders. Depending on your definition of indie games you have great ones like Mount and Blade, Amnesia, etc. I would imagine those shops started out about as big as BFC a few years ago. You can't charge full game prices and not expect to be compared to other games for the same price. If you want the indie label and the review discount then you price yourself accordingly. If you want to compete at full price then you compete with the big shops. CMx1 got GREAT reviews from the big magazines whether they catered to twitch gamers or not. How many people here are using the standard tabbed UI controls for their games? How many are using the text file that a user made to change the hotkeys? If you are a reviewer you are using the stock game and basing your review on that then IMHO the UI is backwards. If you hit a key and your tank crew bails out rather than prowl forward looking for a target based on which tabbed window is selected then it is probably a bad UI decision. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfhand Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 My understanding is that Steve has said that the UI is a main priority for the next family... so, for those saying it needs to be addressed, it will be. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Actually UI changes aren't too hard to make. What's hard is when you make a mistake in the design of the underlaying logic/system, like you find out that vehicles can carry passengers and you forgot to design for that and now you're halfway done. Admittedly this is a gross example but in the business world programmers are seldom experts on business process itself so they have learn about through interviews and such. Moving buttons around or changing command keys is all pretty easy. Granted with CM you might have to some new artwork too. What bugs me is when people that say CM doesn't have a "standard" gaming UI. There is no standard UI for games. No ISO 9000 committee meets puts out a strategy game standards specification. Its really not like any other game anyway, so the controls are bound to be different. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 My understanding is that Steve has said that the UI is a main priority for the next family... so, for those saying it needs to be addressed, it will be. I think the quote was more Steve is trying to convince Charles they should address it. Now a plea to all, can we lower the tone of this? Capt I am actually in agreement with you on 99% of this and sparked a run on the UI discussion in another thread, but please can we bring this to a more civil threshold? Your points are all valid, but would be made better if not couched in language designed to provoke. I have to admit to also being irked by the comments about the design and blanket statements about how many people are bugged by this, however I try to take them in the way they are intended. It comes from people who genuinely like the game and want to offer suggestions in ways they feel the experience can be improved. Take their frustration with the issues in the UI as a sign of how much they love the rest of the game and that being the standard they are trying to hold the UI to. I think Mr Griswold actually said as much. ClarkWGriswold same goes for you, I can think of a number of games with far worse issues including the UI and none of them offer even close to the gaming experience of CMBN as compensation. One doesn't have to completely trash the labor of a dedicated very small group of individuals over a number of years to be able to offer suggestions that could improve the interface. Odds are you actually undermine your ability to make your input respected and listened to, it's just a normal human response. BFC has worked very hard to deliver a very unique game that many of us see as the culmination of everything we wanted to see in the transition from boardgames to the computer. Yeah it has issues, but NO ONE else has even come close. That deserves at least enough respect to drop it down a notch from "one of the worst UI..." to perhaps "a UI that needs to come up to the other standards in the game". How's that for diplomatic? :-P 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 People who think that the CMBN interface isn't terrible, and that terrible interfaces don't do terrible damage to sales are simply delusional. This has been discussed at lengths with very concrete suggestions for improvements and what exactly is wrong, but it has been fanboied under. The root of the problem is that the actual fans (bois or not) have built muscle memory from enough play. Muscle memory can make you deal with any interface. These people are not qualified to speak on the topic. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 People who think that the CMBN interface isn't terrible, and that terrible interfaces don't do terrible damage to sales are simply delusional. This has been discussed at lengths with very concrete suggestions for improvements and what exactly is wrong, but it has been fanboied under. The root of the problem is that the actual fans (bois or not) have built muscle memory from enough play. Muscle memory can make you deal with any interface. These people are not qualified to speak on the topic. Sorry, I am not working off muscle memory and am qualified to speak. I have had the game no longer than anyone else who puchased it pre order and apparently get less time in than some of these guys who manage a dozen simultaneous PBEM games. That I get the UI and it works for me doesn't make me a fanboi, though I have no problem considering myself one. Maybe it's more I don't walk in with an expectation on what it should be based on some other game or maybe I am just one of those odd individuals that it works for, who knows? Your tone however is if I don't agree with your assessment, then my opinion doesn't count. Good to know, I will stop trying to particiapte in any further discussions on the subject. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Now you changed the topic. Now you imply that I said that not a single person on earth can be suited with the UI, which I didn't. Sticking your collective heads into the sand might look like a satisfying option to you, but it won't get the sales where they are supposed to be. Very few (not zero) people will survive first contact with the UI in the CMBN demo and buy the game. You people aren't qualified since you were looking for a game like this in the first place. It's like being stranded in China but only being attracted to tall blondes. You will put up with a lot of high maintenance if your priorities are set in stone. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJFHutch Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I kind of expected that score to be honest. On the surface CMBN is a game with poor graphics, horrendously unresponsive camera controls, a cluttered and too complex GUI as well as slow and boring gameplay. Then again, I wouldn't trust or read any review that focused on the "first impressions" of a game, since the first impressions will only exist for 10 minutes or so, that 90% score will hold out only until you find out the gameplay is shallow, repetitive and allows no creativity or thought. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 People who think that the CMBN interface isn't terrible, and that terrible interfaces don't do terrible damage to sales are simply delusional. This has been discussed at lengths with very concrete suggestions for improvements and what exactly is wrong, but it has been fanboied under. The root of the problem is that the actual fans (bois or not) have built muscle memory from enough play. Muscle memory can make you deal with any interface. These people are not qualified to speak on the topic. OOoo and just when you thought this was going to get boring... Ok Sunshine, let's dance (as I look longingly at my sixguns). Clark and Coy are lightweights by definition but I see Gamersquad has let loose what they consider heavy hitters!! So let's start with your baseline: "People who think that the CMBN interface isn't terrible, and that terrible interfaces don't do terrible damage to sales are simply delusional". Oh my, that is a violent statement!! Ok lets break it down. The interface is 'terrible'...as compared to what? The interface needs work, I was one of the first to admit it needs work but "terrible"? "Terrible damage to sales"? You of course have some sort of solid metric to apply to these theories? If course you being a wargame marketing expert know..right? "Been discussed but has been fanboied under" Another wonderfully over the top statement that I welcome some sort of proof. For the most part BFC and others have continuously tried to outline where the game needs improvement and where its strengths and weaknesses are. Some, on other boards in what amounts to a sad sort of self-justification for the amount of energy spent looking for the lone gunman, ignoring the explaination posts and rally forth with deeply painful and dramatic examples where BFC has "let them down" and where the "insolvency of BFC" will be the only thing that validates their POV. I will submit to the jury that other than the odd "drive by", people like Redwolf have offered little to know positive input into this or any other wargame. I am not sure what the history is here but these types of broad, uneducated statements are but a symptom of a sad demographic. This demographic is one of actual success in reality. For every weird "nutter" who is willling to invest an inordinate amount of time in slaggin a product, there is a fanboi willing to defend it. By that measure, Redwolf and I amount to a clear metric of success for BFC and I wish them the absolute best 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Now you changed the topic. Now you imply that I said that not a single person on earth can be suited with the UI, which I didn't. Sticking your collective heads into the sand might look like a satisfying option to you, but it won't get the sales where they are supposed to be. Very few (not zero) people will survive first contact with the UI in the CMBN demo and buy the game. You people aren't qualified since you were looking for a game like this in the first place. It's like being stranded in China but only being attracted to tall blondes. You will put up with a lot of high maintenance if your priorities are set in stone. Redwolf...stop the bull****. Give us the BFC CMBN sales figures which underpin you position (as weak due to UI compared to if UI was perfect) or simply run back to a forum which will listen to your patent nonsense. Where are those "sales where they are suppose to be"? I await on top of that hill. Or more bluntly; "you are full of **** and bad manners, prove your point or get the f!@# out" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Now you changed the topic. Now you imply that I said that not a single person on earth can be suited with the UI, which I didn't. Sticking your collective heads into the sand might look like a satisfying option to you, but it won't get the sales where they are supposed to be. Very few (not zero) people will survive first contact with the UI in the CMBN demo and buy the game. You people aren't qualified since you were looking for a game like this in the first place. It's like being stranded in China but only being attracted to tall blondes. You will put up with a lot of high maintenance if your priorities are set in stone. Case in point - none of us knows BFCs sales figures so how can you even suggest what they are, aren't or should be? BFC, the owners of the game with 10 years behind them doing this are quite happy apparently. All I can infer from that is the pool of people they cater to like it enough to buy it. You have a hard road ahead convincing BFC they need to do anything to deal with their sales figures. I am not sticking my head in the sand, I am just assuming that if the only people who know say sales are quite good, then I have no grounds to assume differently. I am not so delusional to tell someone who knows their business how to run it profitably when I don't even have sales figures to work with. I have no truck with folks thinking the UI could be optimized more (though it is very subjective about what is optimal), but these continued unsubstantiated statements about the UIs impact on the user community just don't carry any weight. Making an unsupported statement about how bad the UI is driving off customers doesn't make it true if it is simply repeated. This isn't one of our godawful political party debates. The demo is free, the UI is right there, so according to your logic sales should be abysmal or simply be to enough core audience that BFC can continue to sell enough to keep them functioning. Well they certainly don't appear to be abysmal and BFC has already made it clear, they are not interested in arguments to get them to reach any different audience than they have. Their position is every attempt to go that road they have seen leads to the doors closing. What we are left with is if you want to argue that the UI has room for improvement, go ahead and suggest to them in a rational clear manner (not saying you haven't elsewhere) and we will see what BFC decides to incorporate. Making the argument that is about sales and insulting their committed customer base isn't going to budge them. Making it about having a better gaming experience, now that is more likely to hold their attention. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoolaman Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 OOoo and just when you thought this was going to get boring... Ok Sunshine, let's dance (as I look longingly at my sixguns). Clark and Coy are lightweights by definition but I see Gamersquad has let loose what they consider heavy hitters!! Is it any wonder that beta testers get a reputation for shouting people down. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Statisoris Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Is it any wonder that beta testers get a reputation for shouting people down. I concur, you would expect better behavior from people representing the company. Capt's tone and last statements were uncalled for. Loose the attitude Capt. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Is it any wonder that beta testers get a reputation for shouting people down. I can't say either side has anything to be proud of at the moment...sigh. I am just too old for this sh*t. I love this game and 90% of the time I really enjoy this forum (I even secretly enjoy the Peng thread), but when we start tanking like this I could give a crap about what anyone cares. It isn't the UI, the price or the DRM that will drive people away. It is our own inability to just talk and share differences of opinion. Yeah I know it's still better than a lot of other forums out there, but I expect better from people who profess to love a game because it is mentally challenging and on a subject that requires we have to actually read. And Capt is not representing BFC, he is stating his opinion and doing so no better or worse than Redwolf, but at least is not basing an argument on unsupported "facts". Nobody is in the "right" here. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryujin Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I've seen people try to get into CMSF/CMN and then give up. Horrible UI, dated graphics, etc all come up for why they don't like the games. Redwolf is right (idk about the sales and such). It's a niche game and keep in mind PCgamer does general scores, not wargamer scores. For your general gamer, 73% is perfectly reasonable. It's got deep gameplay but it's not easy to get into, not very inviting, and of niche appeal. I have a feeling a lot of people here are insulated from how unapproachable CM is, being long time fans. I like CMN, but if I was reviewing it in a general game magazine, my score wouldn't be a lot higher. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Is it any wonder that beta testers get a reputation for shouting people down. I welcome any scrutiny on my previous posts or opinions. Plse hit my handle and dig into my responses. You will find them (I hope) balanced and fair in my assessment of BFC's products and opinions. You are right, we are the only reason that BFC, doesn't get your point. We are all robots who will defend BFC regardless. Or maybe, we have already posted, fought for and accepted these points after roughly hundreds hours of beta play knowning what the stresses and strains are in producing a heavily realistic wargame. Or you could take look at other forums which also give a balanced view of the game like: http://forums.gamesquad.com/forumdisplay.php?5-Combat-Mission Here you will see a lot of names, like Redwolf, giving a fair evaluation of the games merits and weaknesses. We "bad betas" smashing constructive critique not with standing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I've seen people try to get into CMSF/CMN and then give up. Horrible UI, dated graphics, etc all come up for why they don't like the games. Redwolf is right (idk about the sales and such). It's a niche game and keep in mind PCgamer does general scores, not wargamer scores. For your general gamer, 73% is perfectly reasonable. It's got deep gameplay but it's not easy to get into, not very inviting, and of niche appeal. I have a feeling a lot of people here are insulated from how unapproachable CM is, being long time fans. I like CMN, but if I was reviewing it in a general game magazine, my score wouldn't be a lot higher. and in a general music mag, The SF Opera doing Carmen might get a yawn, but that doesn't say anything about the game, rather it says something as you said about the reviewer and their general audience...okay I admit it is a stretch suggesting we are anything at all like a cultured audience the way this thread has gone, but I think maybe you get my point. CM is going to be unapproachable to anyone who isn't interested, no less than a true grognard game about the Civil or Napoleonic wars is gonna be. Trying to make something as true to the subject means you are going to have to cater to the people who care about it. An FPS doesn't usually have to care as long as it is sufficiently gory and your standard RTS if you just imagine different graphics plays all pretty much the same. *edit* Sorry Ryujin, I just caught the idk in your statement, honestly didn't realize what that meant initially. And back to the sales point, what is anyone basing that on? How do you know what the sales are or could be? I'd really like to understand that one as it keeps getting tossed around as if somehow repeated often enough I will just accept that despite having no data it is undoubtedly correct. Hearing that one gets me as upset as likely it does the Capt, I just try not to let what I am thinking blurt out. WHY it bothers me is, you guys suggest a path for BFC with no data that they have repeatedly warned carries a risk for their business, and you do so at no cost to yourselves. If BFC does follow that logic and it does turn out to be folly, we will all pay the price for you guys assumption that you can project a business model out of thin air. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixxkiller Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I concur, you would expect better behavior from people representing the company. Capt's tone and last statements were uncalled for. Loose the attitude Capt. First off, we dont represent the company. We are fans just like you. We get to play stuff and help in the development, that's it. We love the game and make many more suggestions and WAY more gripes behind the scenes than you do. And some of you had better hope to hell they never hire me to moderate this board because I would tolerate none of these negative comments. No other companies do, yet you guys have almost carte blanche here to do so and don't realize how good you have it. Some of you claim you love the game and sit on a soap box telling BFC how they have screwed this game up because you dont like something about it. I would be willing to bet not one of you served in WWII and dont understand that what we put out is just an estimation of what variable results could happen in certain circumstances. Aint nothing perfect and since no one else CAN even make a game as detailed as this about a subject you are interested in I have some advice for you...... When you fire up the game, try to enjoy it. The world doesnt end if your Panther gets knocked out, your team gets hit by a mortar in a foxhole, or your opponent doesnt send the file back in a timely manner. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I concur, you would expect better behavior from people representing the company. Capt's tone and last statements were uncalled for. Loose the attitude Capt. I have to respond to this one. "Representing the company". Am I some clerk at the front of the store, the one with the fake plastic smile trying to sell? I am I suppose to swallow my pride for the $50 BFC gets when you, the consumer, lays it down on the table with the creepy smile demading I take the G-string off? We Betas are the first line of quality control and quality assurance. We work this game for free for hundreds of hours. Many build the scenarios and campaigns for the very love of the hobby. The thanks we get from the community is enormous and in the end keeps us going. But when few (a very few), try and hold us up to some sort of "subserviant shopkeep" standard in attempt to bear-bait and prove their own personal points, I call bull****. The second BFC "loses the attitude", the attitude which keeps it focused on delivering the best tactical wargaming experience on the market no matter what. That day I walk away. This gentlemen is a day I never expect to come. You want to label me something children? Fine call me a "fanman". After two wars (one of which Steve spent personal effort keeping in touch with me) and twenty three years military service and nearly a decade supporting this company I think I have earned that at least. I and other Betas will continue to challenge and push for a better product. We do this not for gain or for fame. We do this because we love th hobby and desperately want to see it survive. You want to call me on something? Call me on that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosseau Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I will put up with the UI and less than stellar graphics. That is really a give-in in most hardcore wargames. But I find the scenario editor to be a thing of beauty. In fact, I can't think of a slicker one. Can you? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 You want to label me something children? Fine call me a "fanman". After two wars and twenty three years military service and nearly a decade supporting this company I think I have earned that at least. Excuse me? I have to settle for fanboi and you get beta tester AND fanMAN? Geez, can you settle for fanvet? By the way, thank you for your service, as a veteran and as a beta tester. Both are appreciated. Still don't want to call you fanMAN...unless of course you want to wear some silly tights and talk funny. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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