Brain-dead TacAI?

[aleader]

Oh, actually. I've got one of those ... somewhere. It's of a British Sherman squadron (or regiment?) drawn up on the forward face of a hill, waiting for something (an attack to begin, IIRC). Whatever it was, the timing kept getting slipped, and they got left out there on the hill for most of the afternoon. Tanks were gradually getting picked off by a German tank or gun they assumed was hidden in trees somewhere on the opposite hill. Eventually the commander though 'screw this' and pulled what was left back through the hedgrerow behind them, then went off to swear at his brigadier.

There's similar stories from GOODWOOD.

And there are oodles of stories of infantry stolidly holding their positions under perpetual artillery fire.

That's the Brits for you ;-) He did pull back going against orders though, right? If the game doesn't have that logic at all, all the tanks would have been lost. And infantry dug in under artillery fire is quite a different thing. Covered arcs have no bearing there. That's player stupidity, or suppression...

[sburke]

Then what does the player do when he wants effective spotting, for example an FO, nose pressed against the bocage, but at the same inhibiting the spotter from firing at targets?

I don't use the FO for spotting. His job is to call artillery. I try to keep my FOs back where they have as much a view of the entire battlefield as possible or at least the areas they need to spot rounds and not too close to anyone else who might call in unwanted enemy fire. I hope to keep my FOs unrattled, safe and secure as much as I can as they aren't doing me any good if they aren't prepared to call in arty when I need it.

I leave the spotting to my platoon HQs etc. My infantry need to know where the enemy is and the pltn HQs have binoculars etc. I haven't found keeping infantry covered arcs to be that much of a detriment for spotting and I use them extensively to keep my infantry from firing until the enemy is close enough for the fire to be more effective. Hiding on the other hand can really impact you as they have their nose to the dirt and are fairly blind.

[sburke]

That's the Brits for you ;-) He did pull back going against orders though, right? If the game doesn't have that logic at all, all the tanks would have been lost.

The game doesn't have that logic as that is a formation order- that would be your job. ;-D

As to the specifics of individual tanks reacting under fire, I honestly don't have enough data to comment as I also use them different tactically. In those few instances I have actually set a CA for an armored vehicle it was because I wanted them to wait until an enemy vehicle was within a specified distance. Generally those situations have my AFV way back keyholed on a specific area and far removed from any other threats and with infantry to keep an eye on their rear and flanks. Most of my PBEMs have been with me on the defense so far. If I am going to expose a vehicle to other threat angles I usually only have a face command.

AT guns on the other hand I have more difficulty managing. I don't care if an AFV opens up on infantry, I can always relocate. An ATG that gives up it's position though better hit something good as odds are it won't last very much longer.

[JonS]

He did pull back going against orders though, right?

After several hours. If you, as a player, can't figure out that your plan and orders need to change on a faster OODA loop than several hours then, well ... maybe snakes and ladders?

And infantry dug in under artillery fire is quite a different thing. Covered arcs have no bearing there.

Non sequitur. The tanks didn't have CAs either.

That's player stupidity, or suppression...

Nah. Player stupidity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results

[stikkypixie]

But Steve just posted that units enjoy a spotting bonus *within* the Cover Arc. IOW, the FO could open fire on enemy troops exposing his position.

Steve posted that the size of the arc matters and the bonus you get diminishes with the size of the arc. So it is better to use a small arc as this will prevent the FOs from firing and you'll get the same spotting "ability" anyway since a really cover arc doesn't add anything.

[Battlefront.com]

Quick rule of thumb...

If you want to limit your engagement (Targeting), use Cover Arcs. If you want to optimize your Spotting, carefully choose your Facing, Position, and Unbutton. Cover Arcs should not be used to optimize Spotting. That just sorta comes as a side benefit for limiting your targeting area.

I advise this because if you try to "game the system" (e.g. eek out an undeserved bonus) to get a little bit of a Spotting edge you might very well get a side effect of not engaging something you otherwise would like to engage.

Now, there are circumstances where terrain chokes off most LOS possibilities anyway, so in that case I do suggest Cover Arcs. Covering a road bounded on both sides by Hedgerows, for example. Or a narrow street. Don't worry about the Cover Arcs blocking out potential engagements because the terrain does it for you.

Steve

[Wego McPbem]

Quick rule of thumb...

If you want to limit your engagement (Targeting), use Cover Arcs. If you want to optimize your Spotting, carefully choose your Facing, Position, and Unbutton. Cover Arcs should not be used to optimize Spotting. That just sorta comes as a side benefit for limiting your targeting area.

I advise this because if you try to "game the system" (e.g. eek out an undeserved bonus) to get a little bit of a Spotting edge you might very well get a side effect of not engaging something you otherwise would like to engage.

Yeah, I've had a few too many disasters with cover arcs to try to use them like that anymore. With afvs I mostly use cover arcs for stuff like setting the facing of a turret while it's coming out of cover, then using a face command to get rid of the arc asap.

edit: It's funny to me how when I first started playing the game I would go crazy with complicated sequences of waypoints with cover arcs and pauses all over the place but nowadays I try to keep everything as simple as possible and have been seeing much better results from it.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I reran one of my old tests to make sure of my observations. 76m Shermans shooting at Panthers at 100m. Sure enough, the Panthers held fast to their CAs no matter how much punishment they took. But then I remembered that I always used fanatic crews in my testing to reduce their tendency to retreat. I lowered their motivation down to normal and BINGO, they started ignoring the CAs and shooting back. Not all of them, but most of them did.

So it does appear that my earlier claim that vehicles never disregard CAs was incorrect. Sorry about that

What it does show is that their willingness to ignore a CA to defend themselves is closely tied to motivation. So if you have a vehicle with a highly motivated crew you do need to be extra careful about how and when you give it a CA. Also, even tanks with normal motivation did not always ignore the CA to shoot back, even against another tank shooting at it from only 100m away.

[Daroc]

As regards, not managing to get off a shot, and the randomness of real life in battle, I'll quote the following example from an interview with a British tanker who was at Villers-Bocage when Wittmanns' Tiger went on the rampage:-

I believe the tank was a Firefly which definitely had a chance of hurting the Tiger. The tank was parked in a yard beside and to the rear of a house aside the main street into town. The crew heard the fire and commotion and then the Tiger went straight past the opening of the yard presenting its flank as it did so. The Firefly never fired. Why?

Because the gun-layer had stepped out of the tank to take a piss!

BF Please make this for the next patch and also the loader animations of pissin onself when surprised.

[Michael Emrys]

Oh, actually. I've got one of those ... somewhere. It's of a British Sherman squadron (or regiment?) drawn up on the forward face of a hill, waiting for something (an attack to begin, IIRC). Whatever it was, the timing kept getting slipped, and they got left out there on the hill for most of the afternoon. Tanks were gradually getting picked off by a German tank or gun they assumed was hidden in trees somewhere on the opposite hill. Eventually the commander though 'screw this' and pulled what was left back through the hedgrerow behind them, then went off to swear at his brigadier.

That sounds almost like Ken Tout's Tank!

Michael

[aleader]

Non sequitur. The tanks didn't have CAs either.

Not sure what you mean here. We're talking about AFV's with CAs in CMBN, right? In any event, artillery falling in a CA would make no difference whether infantry or AFV.

[JonS]

Might be, but I don't think so. It's definately from one of the memoirs I've read over the last 5-or-so years. Probably one of these:

* Flame Thrower, Andrew Wilson

* Armoured Guardsmen, Robert Boscawen

* Troop Leader, Bill Bellamy

* By Tank into Normandy, Stuart Hills

* Out of Step, Michael Carver

[JonS]

Not sure what you mean here. We're talking about AFV's with CAs in CMBN, right? In any event, artillery falling in a CA would make no difference whether infantry or AFV.

You asked for Real Life examples of troops sitting stolidly under fire. I gave a specific tank-based one, and a more general one involving infantry.

You chose to ignore them so ... whatevs.

[GreenAsJade]

Quick rule of thumb...

If you want to limit your engagement (Targeting), use Cover Arcs. If you want to optimize your Spotting, carefully choose your Facing, Position, and Unbutton. Cover Arcs should not be used to optimize Spotting. That just sorta comes as a side benefit for limiting your targeting area.

Steve

I'm still hunting for it, but I am reasonably sure that you said that there was a commensurate reduction in spotting ability outside the arc.

IE if you are concentrating in the arc, you will spot less outside.

Is this wrong? I hope so.

However, I _seem_ to be experiencing this, and it seems to make sense. If you are concentrating spotting in the CA, then it seems that you will spot less outside?

I have units with no arc spotting enemy in the distance that units with close arcs are not spotting, right nearby.

I know that there are many variables, I might just be imposing an interpretation on what I'm seeing.

Hence it would be great to know: is it the case that the bonus for spotting inside a CA is offset by a reduction outside a CA (either expliticly, or due to concentrating spotting in the CA) ?

Thanks!

GaJ

[Georgie]

I'm still hunting for it, but I am reasonably sure that you said that there was a commensurate reduction in spotting ability outside the arc.

IE if you are concentrating in the arc, you will spot less outside.

Is this wrong? I hope so.

However, I _seem_ to be experiencing this. I have units with no arc spotting enemy in the distance that units with close arcs are not spotting, right nearby.

I know that there are many variables, I might just be imposing an interpretation on what I'm seeing.

Hence it would be great to know: is it the case that the bonus for spotting in a CA is offset by a reduction outside a CA?

Thanks!

GaJ

Or is is it better sighting inside the arc?

[JonS]

Hence it would be great to know: is it the case that the bonus for spotting inside a CA is offset by a reduction outside a CA (either expliticly, or due to concentrating spotting in the CA) ?

I hope so. Each unit should only have so much 'attention' to distribute on spotting. If it is concentrating on one area - paying more attention to it - it should have less attention to spend elsewhere. This is in addition to general facing-based distribution of attention (that is: more to the front, less to the sides, way less to the rear)

I wonder if attention is distributed per-unit-area as well? That is, a unit in a small windowless, doorless single story building should spot anything sharing that space with it almost immediately (only ~1 tile to inspect). But a unit in the middle of a 4km x 4km plain might take a while to spot anything (there's now 250,000 tiles to inspect).

[GreenAsJade]

Right: so supposing this is the case (and we're still guessing) then how do you say to your troops "keep your eyes open on the distance, that's where the enemy is coming from, but under no circumstances fire on anything out there"?

We seem to be suffering from "what you shoot at" is mixed up with "what you look at".

I don't want my troops opening fire, any of them, but I don't want to be missing things in the distance...

GaJ

[Childress]

then how do you say to your troops "keep your eyes open on the distance, that's where the enemy is coming from, but under no circumstances fire on anything out there"?

There's the rub.

[Battlefront.com]

I think the spotting bonus aspect is getting people off track here. Yes, there is a bonus. But far more factors go into whether you spot something fast, or at all, than Cover Arc. As I said, put your unit in a good position and Face it in the direction you want to observe. If it's an armored vehicle, unbutton it. An unbuttoned vehicle without a CA will outspot a buttoned one with CA. A unit with only 20m of view in front of it will likely spot just as quickly with CA or without CA. A unit at night is likely to spot crappy either way. A unit that has a naturally narrowed field of vision (street fighting, for example) will likely spot just as well as a unit with the same narrow field of vision using a CA.

Which is why I advised above... do not use CAs to get some sort of spotting speed increase. It is not what the Command is designed for and if you don't want to limit your engagement area you could be very unhappy with the results.

Should we include a "Spotting Covered Arc" Command? In theory, we could add that and a couple dozen other Commands that micro manage the Hell out of your unit's behavior. But we're not going to do that because that would not be a good idea

Steve

[sburke]

Nah. Player stupidity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results

I thought that was insanity...mmm maybe they are the same thing...

[GreenAsJade]

Thanks for this update, but it doesn't answer the question.

The question is not actually about how to use CA to improve spotting.

I appreciate your description of how to properly improve spotting in a target area.

The question is: does putting a CA reduce spotting outside the CA?

It sounds like it does. The reason it sounds like it does is because you described that the improvement from spotting in a CA comes from spending more time spotting in there.

Clearly, if spotting inside a CA reduces spotting outside, then we have a problem about how to stop units firing while observing in the distance.

I'm not proposing any particular solution (two kinds of arcs sounds clumsy and micromanage, I agree).

I'm trying to understand if there actually is a problem. Because it _feels_ like there is. My units with arcs are not spotting well in the distance, and I don't understand why not.

GaJ

[Battlefront.com]

The bonus for spotting within the arc isn't huge, therefore the penalty for spotting things outside of the arc isn't huge either. If you're noticing something significant I am going to suggest CAs are not responsible for it. Controlled tests are the only way to prove or disprove that theory, BTW, since anecdotal stuff inherently means no apples to apples comparisons.

The solution to what you just asked about is easy... just make the arc longer (deeper).

Steve

[sfhand]

I just ran some firing lane tests with US snipers in foxholes 300 meters away from German infantry squads. I gave both forces ~50 meter target arcs. Not all units spotted their counterparts in the same time frame. All but one had spotted their enemy within one minute and five seconds (the vast majority had spotted their enemy within 40 seconds), with the first sniper team spotting in 3 seconds and the first German infantry spotting in 4 seconds. I only ran this test once as it seemed to indicate that units will spot "through" their target arcs which allows the player to spot but not fire at distant units.

A side note, I waited a couple of minutes for the one hold-out non-spotting German infanty squad (I would have thought more eyes would give it a spotting advantage over a sniper team without binos) and then I gave it a minute with no target arc with no spotting occuring. I put the arc back on and hunted it toward it's enemy, which it finally spotted at 150 meters. Go figure... I guess those were the old troops the Germans were defending Normandy with.

[GreenAsJade]

Great to have some tests already!

I might do some more of this.

It's good to hear that it might not be a problem. If it is a problem, extending the arcs is not the solution, is it? Since you don't want the things that you want to spot inside the arc.

But anyhow, tests are the answer

GaJ

[sfhand]

The first time I ran the test I had the snipers' arcs facing the wrong way, they still spotted their targets pretty quickly, I believe the first spotting happened 9 seconds into the turn.