Artillery Denied

[Cymru]

I am playing a QB and have both a forward Observer and a Battalion Commander with radios. Neither is injured or under fire. Both have been in their respective locations for over five minutes. Both receive ‘Denied’ on all off-board artillery. What am I missing?

Thanks

[A Canadian Cat]

I am playing a QB and have both a forward Observer and a Battalion Commander with radios. Neither is injured or under fire. Both have been in their respective locations for over five minutes. Both receive ‘Denied’ on all off-board artillery. What am I missing?

Hummm there must be something going on. What kind of artillery is it? On page 103 of the manual under section "Matchup" what kind of a match icon do you see for them?

[Cymru]

Hummm there must be something going on. What kind of artillery is it? On page 103 of the manual under section "Matchup" what kind of a match icon do you see for them?

I can no longer look, since I gave up. But one is a FO and the other the Battalion commander, so I cannot see why they would not have sufficient authority. As there were no other requests for Arty, it cannot be that they are not considered high priority.

[A Canadian Cat]

I can no longer look, since I gave up. But one is a FO and the other the Battalion commander, so I cannot see why they would not have sufficient authority. As there were no other requests for Arty, it cannot be that they are not considered high priority.

If you can no longer look then sadly anyone trying to help would only be guessing.

No saved game kicking around some where you could post and let people play with? I know sort of a rhetorical question given your previous statement but a suggestion for future posts would be - if you are having trouble with something in a game keep a saved game around to share with people on the forum.

[akd]

Since FOs are qualified to spot for all support assets, "denied" would only appear if the qualified individual in the FO team was a casualty.

[c3k]

Cymru,

In the future, if this type of frustrating event pops up, a screenshot or, even better, a savegame, would be useful. Either the event could be explained as to WHY it happened (you may not like the answer/design decision, but at least you'd understand it), or you may've uncovered a bug which could then get squashed.

Without anything to look at, we're all left with a best guess and a shrug.

So far, I think akd's got it. Either the radioman/FO was a casualty, or the radio didn't have time to set up. (That last one's a total guess. )

Best of luck next time.

Ken

[Ryujin]

If I recall correctly, radios don't work when a unit is moving (last time I checked was in CMSF though). However, the setup time when they stop again should be very, very short.

If they weren't moving or panicked and no one important to calling in fire were casualties, then it sounds like a bug of some sort, as the FO/BN commander should have access to everything.

[phil stanbridge]

I think I've got the same problem here, and I can get a screenshot.

[snake_eye]

From what I have seen, while trying to use a F.O and or a Team leader to call some fire plan, here are my experiences:

For on map assets

For mortars and or field guns, they are denied :

If, they are not deployed.

If the team leader is out of voice reach of the tubes

If the FO and or another leader calling for fire :

Is out of voice reach of the tubes team leader

If he has no radio link to the team mortar (Field guns) and or platoon leader from its observatory position

If the team leader and or platoon leader has no radio to receive its call.

If the team leader receiving the radio order is out of voice reach of its tubes

For off map Mortars and or Artillery :

The FO, Platoon and company leaders must have a radio link.

If for example a platoon leader has no radio functioning, since it has been destroyed during the fighting, he can not call anymore off map assets.

In one scenario –Counter Attack Ladenstadt -I was unable to use the FO for no apparent reasons. However, I think that I missed something in the heat of the battle. So, I used a platoon leader close to the mortars tubes and at voice reach to order a mortar barrage.

[Michael Emrys]

In a recent game, I noticed that my platoon leaders' radios seemed to go though occasional periods of not functioning. I wasn't trying to call in artillery, so that wasn't effected, but they were out of C2 for a while. I just took it that this was intentional modeling of the sometimes unreliable behavior of radio sets of that time.

Michael

[stikkypixie]

In a recent game, I noticed that my platoon leaders' radios seemed to go though occasional periods of not functioning. I wasn't trying to call in artillery, so that wasn't effected, but they were out of C2 for a while. I just took it that this was intentional modeling of the sometimes unreliable behavior of radio sets of that time.

Michael

Did the platoon HQ just moved? They need time to set up the radio.

[Michael Emrys]

Did the platoon HQ just moved? They need time to set up the radio.

Might have. Next time I encounter the problem I'll make a note of that. With so much going on in this game, it is damn near impossible to keep track of everything, even playing WEGO.

Michael

[akd]

From what I have seen, while trying to use a F.O and or a Team leader to call some fire plan, here are my experiences:

For on map assets

For mortars and or field guns, they are denied :

If, they are not deployed.

If the team leader is out of voice reach of the tubes

If the FO and or another leader calling for fire :

Is out of voice reach of the tubes team leader

If he has no radio link to the team mortar (Field guns) and or platoon leader from its observatory position

If the team leader and or platoon leader has no radio to receive its call.

If the team leader receiving the radio order is out of voice reach of its tubes

"DENIED" is a specific status caused only by the selected unit not being qualified to call for the support asset. None of the above play any role, but rather are examples of situations where support assets would be listed as "out of contact," "out of position," "busy," etc.

For off map Mortars and or Artillery :

The FO, Platoon and company leaders must have a radio link.

If for example a platoon leader has no radio functioning, since it has been destroyed during the fighting, he can not call anymore off map assets.

This is not correct. Access to a radio does not affect the spotter. Any unit qualified to spot maintains access to support assets regardless of C2 and equipment.

In the case of the latter, most likely the qualified observer (the platoon leader) has also been destroyed.

[Frankster65]

In a recent game, I noticed that my platoon leaders' radios seemed to go though occasional periods of not functioning. I wasn't trying to call in artillery, so that wasn't effected, but they were out of C2 for a while. I just took it that this was intentional modeling of the sometimes unreliable behavior of radio sets of that time.

Michael

If units with radios are moving...they are out of C2 with respect to radio function. Watch them, if the unit is moving and then stops, getting into position, give them a few seconds, they will then link up with their radio and reconnect to the network.

[Vanir Ausf B]

In a recent game, I noticed that my platoon leaders' radios seemed to go though occasional periods of not functioning.

I have seen this happen as well. In my case it was a company HQ unit. The unit began the turn with the radio icon present, then lost it shortly after the turn started, remained out of C2 for about 30-40 seconds and then regained radio contact before the turn ended. The unit was motionless the entire turn.

[snake_eye]

To be more precise and to correct my post after the right remarks of AKD :

Snake eye Quote:

From what I have seen, while trying to use a F.O and or a Team leader to call some fire plan, here are my experiences:

For on map assets

For mortars and or field guns, they are DENIED:

If, they are not deployed.

If the team leader is out of voice reach of the tubes

If the FO and or another leader calling for fire :

Is out of voice reach of the tubes team leader

If he has no radio link to the team mortar (Field guns) and or platoon leader from its observatory position

If the team leader and or platoon leader has no radio to receive its call.

If the team leader receiving the radio order is out of voice reach of its tubes

AKD wrote :"DENIED" is a specific status caused only by the selected unit not being qualified to call for the support asset. None of the above play any role, but rather are examples of situations where support assets would be listed as "out of contact," "out of position," "busy," etc.

In my previous post you should effectively read OUT OF CONTACT instead of DENIED. Besides naming it wrongly, the rest is mostly what happens in the game

snake eye Quote:

For off map Mortars and or Artillery :

The FO, Platoon and company leaders must have a radio link.

If for example a platoon leader has no radio functioning, since it has been destroyed during the fighting, he can not call anymore off map assets.

AKD wrote: This is not correct. Access to a radio does not affect the spotter. Any unit qualified to spot maintains access to support assets regardless of C2 and equipment.

In the case of the latter, most likely the qualified observer (the platoon leader) has also been destroyed

Well, I don’t think that this is right. Radio does affect the spotter , if the spotter is out of voices range and has no link to the tubes and or a leader having contact to them.

Here after are quotes from the B-N manual:

“Without a radio nearby, that group of on map mortars is pretty much limited to only firing at targets within sight. Without a radio, that platoon commander who loses sight of his company CO is effectively out of the loop with higher ups”

“C2 links : Iideally the spotter should show green connections to all superior units. The spotter also needs a connection to the firing unit in order to be able to call on it to fire. Units without a communication link to the spotter are shown as – OUT OF CONTACT - in the support roster”

“Match up rating: Depending on how urgently Support is needed, the Matchup rating, may be critically important. The matchup value reflects the difficulty a specific Spotter has in getting in touch with a specific asset and securing permission to use it. A Platoon HQ will have difficulties reaching a Regimental howitzer battery, for example. In fact, in some case such requests may be outright denied. If this is the case, then DENIED is shown in the support roster on the affected asset

Thanks to AKD for having pointed out my wrong appellation.

I would not like to be responsible of a “sabotage” with your artillery and or mortars use in a scenario.:cool:

[Lt Belenko]

I've not had this problem but I do have a question.

With in the ranges of the game can 2 radios be out of contact due to distance?

[akd]

I've not had this problem but I do have a question.

With in the ranges of the game can 2 radios be out of contact due to distance?

No.

Well, I don’t think that this is right. Radio does affect the spotter , if the spotter is out of voices range and has no link to the tubes and or a leader having contact to them.

Here after are quotes from the B-N manual:

“Without a radio nearby, that group of on map mortars is pretty much limited to only firing at targets within sight. Without a radio, that platoon commander who loses sight of his company CO is effectively out of the loop with higher ups”

“C2 links : Iideally the spotter should show green connections to all superior units. The spotter also needs a connection to the firing unit in order to be able to call on it to fire. Units without a communication link to the spotter are shown as – OUT OF CONTACT - in the support roster”

“Match up rating: Depending on how urgently Support is needed, the Matchup rating, may be critically important. The matchup value reflects the difficulty a specific Spotter has in getting in touch with a specific asset and securing permission to use it. A Platoon HQ will have difficulties reaching a Regimental howitzer battery, for example. In fact, in some case such requests may be outright denied. If this is the case, then DENIED is shown in the support roster on the affected asset

C2 for an on-map firing unit does matter, and without C2 they can show as "out of contact," but this is on the firing unit end NOT the spotter end. Spotters are never unable to access support assets because of their own C2 status, however bad C2 can affect their efficiency, thus IDEALLY the spotter should also have good C2.

[Tarquelne]

Spotters are never unable to access support assets because of their own C2 status, however bad C2 can affect their efficiency

What does "efficiency" mean there?

Trying to get a good handle on this... Could you tell me what's correct or mistaken with the following?

Links to off-map HQs can matter for spotting.

Artillery assets are assigned to certain levels - company or battalion or higher, for example, and those levels interact with a spotters C2 links.

With a working radio a company HQ is assumed to have C2 to it's off-map battalion HQ, and that will help it's spotting efficiency for assets not assigned to the company. A company HQ without a radio has no C2 to it's off-map batallion. It can still spot but with lower efficiency.

If platoon, company, and battalion HQs are all on map without radios they'll need to be near/in sight of each other for the platoon HQ to call on battalion assets at full efficiency. But without the C2 links all the way up it can still call the assets. (Assuming they don't need an FO.)

HQs with radios generally don't need to worry about the C2 links. HQs without radios will never have a C2 link up the chain to any off-map HQ.

[snake_eye]

AKD quote : C2 for an on-map firing unit does matter, and without C2 they can show as "out of contact," but this is on the firing unit end NOT the spotter end. Spotters are never unable to access support assets because of their own C2 status, however bad C2 can affect their efficiency, thus IDEALLY the spotter should also have good C2.

Well that is not so sure . Here after to clarify that C2 status are some explanations from the B-N manual about the assets states, as seen from the spotter side:

BUSY – the Asset is used by another Spotter……………………..

DENIED – is shown if the Spotter is not allowed to use the Asset for some permanent reason.

(e.g; a platoon HQ trying to call regimental artillery)

OUT OF CONTACT – is shown if the spotter has no C2 link to that asset

NOT POSITIONED – The mortar and or field gun is not deployed

As can be read, from the manual, Spotter can be unable to access support, if the C2 link doesn’t work for some reason (that is not permanent and might be resumed) or is destroyed (there is then no way to contact the asset, besides voice range or a leader having C2 and being within voice range)

More quoted from the manual about radios:

While the US forces made a deliberate effort to try to provide radios usually at least down to the platoon level, many German formations only possess a radio for the main Company HQ or have one reserved for specialized Forward Observers……. Without a radio nearby, that group of on map mortars is pretty much limited to only firing at targets within sight.

As a matter of fact, when I made the test of “Die Amis Kommen” I have had all sort of problems with the mortars, from out contact, denied, not positioned ……. I found out, that not positioned was mentioned, when the tubes were not deployed. The leader was unable, till the tube was deployed to have it fired by the team. In the heat of a battle you don’t necessarily think about it. The denied mention was more difficult to resolve. However, using another Spotter, a FO rather than a leader helps. The FO seems to have a better access to artillery. I learned pretty much during the testing and was able to have the mortars and artillery working the correct way. But it was very challenging and took some time.

As can be read, the use of assets depends of voice range and also radio link if the team leader has neither one near the tubes they simply won’t fire if they don’t have a LOS.

For the off map a radio link is necessary.:cool:

[akd]

Well that is not so sure . Here after to clarify that C2 status are some explanations from the B-N manual about the assets states, as seen from the spotter side:

BUSY – the Asset is used by another Spotter……………………..

DENIED – is shown if the Spotter is not allowed to use the Asset for some permanent reason.

(e.g; a platoon HQ trying to call regimental artillery)

OUT OF CONTACT – is shown if the spotter has no C2 link to that asset

NOT POSITIONED – The mortar and or field gun is not deployed

As can be read, from the manual, Spotter can be unable to access support, if the C2 link doesn’t work for some reason (that is not permanent and might be resumed) or is destroyed (there is then no way to contact the asset, besides voice range or a leader having C2 and being within voice range)

Well, that is your interpretation of confusing text, but in fact the only status that originates on the spotter end is "denied". All others refer to the status of the support asset, including "out of contact", which does mean there is no link, but the break is up the firing unit's chain of command, not the spotter's.

[snake_eye]

AKD :

For sure the texts are confusing and the results are that we are making different interpretations . But it does not matter if the problem is on the asset side and or the Spotter one. If as you said rightly, there is a break along the line, the order is not going to be transmitted.

When the battle is fought, we don’t have that much time to think, who is the one responsible for the break in the line?. If it works, it is good enough. If it does not, well we are going to suffer since the assets won’t worked. At least, some of them.:cool:

[akd]

AKD :

For sure the texts are confusing and the results are that we are making different interpretations . But it does not matter if the problem is on the asset side and or the Spotter one. If as you said rightly, there is a break along the line, the order is not going to be transmitted.

It does matter, because if only the spotter is out of contact with its superior HQ there won't be a problem with accessing a support asset and the order will be transmitted. This is not my interpretation. This is how it works.

When the battle is fought, we don’t have that much time to think, who is the one responsible for the break in the line?. If it works, it is good enough. If it does not, well we are going to suffer since the assets won’t worked. At least, some of them.:cool:

Well sure, but you could waste a bunch of time trying to fix the problem by addressing the spotter's C2 when the actual problem is the support asset's C2. Luckily you don't have to spend time pondering, because if a support asset is "out of contact", the break is in the support asset's C2.

[Michael Emrys]

It does matter, because if only the spotter is out of contact with its superior HQ there won't be a problem with accessing a support asset and the order will be transmitted. This is not my interpretation. This is how it works.

I gather that the underlying assumption in that case is that the requesting HQ has sent a runner with a message to its superior HQ?

Well sure, but you could waste a bunch of time trying to fix the problem by addressing the spotter's C2 when the actual problem is the support asset's C2. Luckily you don't have to spend time pondering, because if a support asset is "out of contact", the break is in the support asset's C2.

If the asset is off-map, how can it be out of contact? And if it is, how can it resume contact?

Michael

[akd]

I gather that the underlying assumption in that case is that the requesting HQ has sent a runner with a message to its superior HQ?

Either that or it is a limitation of the spotting system.

If the asset is off-map, how can it be out of contact? And if it is, how can it resume contact?

Michael

Off-map assets are never "out of contact" or "out of position."