KI is horrible sometimes

[JG11Preusse]

.... i thought the patch would solve this, but it doesnt.

panzerschreck team (also with targetaangle set to a cycle close to the team) sneaks from behind to a pack of tanks.

reached a good range this stupid soldier starts to shoot with his k98 to the tank, tank recognized the team, booom...dead.

other story .... panzerschreckteam lost 1 man, the other one only have rockets, but no launcher and he also dont takes the lauchner. the only way to get the launcher is to help out as a medic, but the hidden team mate lies at a minor good position an helping as a medic lasts a while >>> both dead.

other story .... had a sniper positioned in a house .... what this idiot does ... he starts shooting at a buttoned tank ... tank recognized him ...booomn ... dead.

i really like to have a "hold fire" button, as i also whished after release.

everything other dont really helps.

mabye taking some weps from fallen mates itselfs wold be nice or at least an option to collect this equippment manually ba the user, as you can do at "achtung panzer" for example.

[etagimbo]

panzerschreck team (also with targetaangle set to a cycle close to the team) sneaks from behind to a pack of tanks.

reached a good range this stupid soldier starts to shoot with his k98 to the tank, tank recognized the team, booom...dead.

other story .... panzerschreckteam lost 1 man, the other one only have rockets, but no launcher and he also dont takes the lauchner. the only way to get the launcher is to help out as a medic, but the hidden team mate lies at a minor good position an helping as a medic lasts a while >>> both dead.

other story .... had a sniper positioned in a house .... what this idiot does ... he starts shooting at a buttoned tank ... tank recognized him ...booomn ... dead.

Maybe the AI should be improved, but I hope that BF never makes the pixel soldiers behave perfectly like combat robots. Soldiers (humans) do lots of stupid and irrational things in reality, especially while in panic or driven by fanatism. The behaviour of the AI may be suboptimal in many cases, but you can use your imagination to explain what happened. Maybe the panzerschreck man just noticed that his Panzerschreck was jammed after running for the tank and in panic just shot with his k98. There are a lot of little things which decide between life and death on the battlefield which are below of the scale of the game (call it chaos or friction). And it would be completely unrealistic if everyone and everything would function just perfectly.

[GreenAsJade]

I think that the explanation "soldiers do stupid things sometimes" for stupid things that happen _frequently_ in the game is a pathetic excuse for a shortcoming in the AI.

Why can't we say "geez, yeah, it would be better if only the AI had that tweaked right!"?

We can all come up with rationalisations for why the AI does stupid things, but that isn't the point. The point is to report consistently stupid things so that we can compare notes to see if others have the same experience, and if so maybe get something done about them...

GaJ

[etagimbo]

I think that the explanation "soldiers do stupid things sometimes" for stipid things that happen _frequently_ in the game is a pathetic excuse for a shortcoming in the AI.

Yes, I said, the AI should be improved. But it should not act like perfect robots, but still do stupid things. Maybe then rather not due to bugs but deliberately by design. The greener the troops the more stupid things would be great for example.

[slysniper]

Until things change, you need to learn to use your covered arcs to prevent your troops from opening up on units that you do not want them to (Tanks).

I have not had much of a problem with this type of fire doing it, but I do have to cross my fingures that my anti-tank units will use the correct weapon when I do finially order then to target the tank. But having another unit shoot at the tank if the commander is exposed is required to get it button up before you use your anti tank units , this helps them from preventing stupid decisions

[JG11Preusse]

Yes, I said, the AI should be improved. But it should not act like perfect robots, but still do stupid things. Maybe then rather not due to bugs but deliberately by design. The greener the troops the more stupid things would be great for example.

maybe the middle way can be, that ki dont acts like a perfect robot and not such stupid, as in the game.

sure human are driven by emotions, but they dont behave such stupid, as in this game

[JG11Preusse]

Until things change, you need to learn to use your covered arcs to prevent your troops from opening up on units that you do not want them to (Tanks).

I have not had much of a problem with this type of fire doing it, but I do have to cross my fingures that my anti-tank units will use the correct weapon when I do finially order then to target the tank. But having another unit shoot at the tank if the commander is exposed is required to get it button up before you use your anti tank units , this helps them from preventing stupid decisions

for what someone have to leran aqbout how to use arcs ? i told you that this aslo works somnetimes and sometimes not, if you read my post in complete.

a "hold fire" button indeed makes everything much more confortable, then using features for different issues to help yourself out with other issues.

sure i can shoot into my knee, when i think i am to fast, but that is what i or you want to ?

[GSX]

The simple answer is, dont have infantry target Armour unless they can either kill it or you tell them to.

Can this be implemented? If it cant then the fall-back plan is to micro-manage every infantry unit with a short arc of fire.

[vonRocko]

A short arc of fire doesn't allow a sniper to be a sniper. You want his target arc long so he can hit at long range. But then he'll shoot at tanks!

[akd]

.... i thought the patch would solve this, but it doesnt.

panzerschreck team (also with targetaangle set to a cycle close to the team) sneaks from behind to a pack of tanks.

reached a good range this stupid soldier starts to shoot with his k98 to the tank, tank recognized the team, booom...dead.

Yeah, this is a problem. Certain specialists with more important things to do (e.g. AT rocket loaders) should not be shooting at exposed tank commanders.

other story .... panzerschreckteam lost 1 man, the other one only have rockets, but no launcher and he also dont takes the lauchner. the only way to get the launcher is to help out as a medic, but the hidden team mate lies at a minor good position an helping as a medic lasts a while >>> both dead.

Expecting the AI to deal with complex situations like this is asking too much, and of course history is full of examples of soldiers exposing themselves to help buddies. Your certainty that this move is stupid is derived from your wider knowledge of the battlefield and hindsight knowledge of the outcome. However, individuals under fire or actively engaging enemies are generally more reluctant to render aid, so they scenario you encountered does not happen often.

other story .... had a sniper positioned in a house .... what this idiot does ... he starts shooting at a buttoned tank ... tank recognized him ...booomn ... dead.

The sniper was shooting at an exposed tank commander, but the AI will take a few shots after a tank buttons, just as they will continue to fire on a location for a moment after they lose a target.

Likely the sniper took a shot at the TC and missed, the TC spotted the sniper then buttoned up and engaged. Clearly snipers shooting at tank commanders is a good thing, so the issue here is not the AI on that end. If there is a problem, it is likely with the tank commander spotting the sniper (depending on the circumstances).

[JG11Preusse]

Yeah, this is a problem. Certain specialists with more important things to do (e.g. AT rocket loaders) should not be shooting at exposed tank commanders.

Expecting the AI to deal with complex situations like this asking too much, and of course history is full of examples of soldiers exposing themselves to help buddies. However, individuals under fire or actively engaging enemies are generally more reluctant to render aid. They also won't move more than a single action spot to give aid.

The sniper was shooting at an exposed tank commander, but the AI will take a few shots after a tank buttons, just as they will continue to fire on a location for a moment after they lose a target.

Likely the sniper took a shot at the TC and missed, the TC spotted the sniper then buttoned up and engaged. Clearly snipers shooting at tank commanders is a good thing, so the issue here is not AI. If there is a problem, it is likely with the tank commander spotting the sniper (depending on the circumstances).

i examined all these tanks where sniper or panzerschreck team shoot at and all where buttoned. on my screen buttoned i have to say.

all in all for a sniper it will be a one shot deal to kill a unbuttoned soldier looking out of his tank in 300 meter distance. this i can do myself with a g3 without a target scope.

if its to complex gto deal with that (taking the maingun from a fallen mate), then let the player do it, like achtung panzer kharkov 1943 also can realize. if they can program it, it cant be to complex. there i can take all weapons and utilities from a fallen soldier, even from an enemy.

also showing hit textures at a tank is not to comlex there, but this is an other story

[etagimbo]

maybe the middle way can be, that ki dont acts like a perfect robot and not such stupid, as in the game.

sure human are driven by emotions, but they dont behave such stupid, as in this game

"Driven by emotions" is nicely put. Soldiers commonly get completely insane on the battlefield. Shell shock, Grabenkoller, battle fatigue whatever you call it. I read that a lot of the German soldiers were filled up with Schnaps before an assault to calm their nerves. You cannot expect them to behave rationally.

Maybe apart from a few battle-hardened coldblooded eastfront veterans probably a minority of soldiers "functioned properly" on the battlefield.

Also read some medal-of-honor citations. If these heroes would not have succeeded against all odds and the first enemy bullet would have stopped them, some of their actions could also be described as quite stupid. Like attacking some MG nests singlehandedly in open view. For every one of these heroes (which they are without doubt) there were probably 50 who tried to do the same stunt but were instantly killed.

[RockinHarry]

...thus we need a "timed" hide command, in order to better avoid "unnecessary" shooting and exposure. The first shots s/b the most effective (surprise & full enemy exposure), so there´s no further need for plinking at an enemy, who either already dived for cover, or is invited to return lethal fire (tanks!).

1 minute (and more) continuous fire fights (WEGO) is a waste of ammo and usually desired effects (killing!) is achieved within first seconds, or not. Anything beyond is just further suppression....a good thing, if that´s the tactical intention.

[akd]

i examined all these tanks where sniper or panzerschreck team shoot at and all where buttoned. on my screen buttoned i have to say.

all in all for a sniper it will be a one shot deal to kill a unbuttoned soldier looking out of his tank in 300 meter distance. this i can do myself with a g3 without a target scope.

if its to complex gto deal with that (taking the maingun from a fallen mate), then let the player do it, like achtung panzer kharkov 1943 also can realize. if they can program it, it cant be to complex. there i can take all weapons and utilities from a fallen soldier, even from an enemy.

also showing hit textures at a tank is not to comlex there, but this is an other story

If you have save a of a unit spotting a buttoned tank and firing on it with small arms, please send it to me (PM for e-mail).

[JG11Preusse]

"Driven by emotions" is nicely put. Soldiers commonly get completely insane on the battlefield. Shell shock, Grabenkoller, battle fatigue whatever you call it. I read that a lot of the German soldiers were filled up with Schnaps before an assault to calm their nerves. You cannot expect them to behave rationally.

Maybe apart from a few battle-hardened coldblooded eastfront veterans probably a minority of soldiers "functioned properly" on the battlefield.

Also read some medal-of-honor citations. If these heroes would not have succeeded against all odds and the first enemy bullet would have stopped them, some of their actions could also be described as quite stupid. Like attacking some MG nests singlehandedly in open view. For every one of these heroes (which they are without doubt) there were probably 50 who tried to do the same stunt but were instantly killed.

you know much about soldiers eh ???

i was one for many many years and i know many other soldiers and i knew also more then a few who fought in ww2.

"read something" maybe is something different

[JG11Preusse]

If you have save a of a unit spotting a buttoned tank and firing on it with small arms, please send it to me (PM for e-mail).

wilco ....

[Battlefront.com]

Yeah, we've never seen small arms engaging buttoned vehicles before. Except, as AKD pointed out, as a brief carry over from firing at an unbuttoned vehicle.

Steve

[stoex]

...a brief carry over from firing at an unbuttoned vehicle.

Steve

It would be really really nice if that carry over could be removed for firing at vehicles, though. It makes a certain amount of sense to keep firing at infantry targets that go out of LOS behind walls, hedges, trees etc., but none at all to fire at tank commanders that have buttoned up. Once the hatch closes, the mission is accomplished and the firing men's attention should be turned elsewhere.

[c3k]

Multiple issues here.

Agreed, as stated by others, that specialists should concentrate on using their special weapon. When they do, the other team members should not act in a manner which is detrimental to the team's purpose. (Spotter opening fire at long range instead of the sniper; ass't firing K98 while Schreckman is about to fire, etc.)

Second issue: Firing at exposed TC is a delicate issue. Of course TC's should get fired at. The question is by whom, at what range, and with what weapon. A Thompson at 250m is a bit much. A scoped rifle at 300m would be fine. The TacAI needs to be tweaked a bit, that's all.

Third issue: Self preservation after missing TC. In the example stated, if a sniper fired at a TC (giving CMBN the benefit of the doubt and assuming that the sniper fired at an exposed TC), and missed, then the tank began turning to his direction, a FAST move out of there would nice.

Ken

[JG11Preusse]

If you have save a of a unit spotting a buttoned tank and firing on it with small arms, please send it to me (PM for e-mail).

after very much more quickbattles for testing this and that, i also can say that the "computer driven forces" are do the same thing. they also shoot at buttoned tanks. not only sometimes, almost all time.

maybe someone things i only play to find odd things wich i can post here .... wrong. i like this game, otherwise i wont play that much with it.

for such ammount of dollars i also dont expect a perfect and super real ww2 simulator. so dont get me wrong, also if it sounds like this sometimes (the language helps to get me wrong i guess, but thats my fault)

[Chris Ferrous]

I've not seen any significant incidences of soldiers using small arms against tanks EXCEPT for unbuttoned Tank Commanders and even then at 'sensible' ranges. Could small arms hits on tanks actually be aimed at infantry nearby?

HMG quite often target tanks and that can lead to their destruction just as easily as infantry, but I suppose the chance of doing some minor but incapacitating damage to the tank is higher.

In a recent pbem game I asked a squad to target a tank to distract it from the real kill threat. They fired a single rifle grenade at it and not one single rifle round, spending the rest of the turn avoiding contact. That seems like entirely realistic behaviour to me.

So, overall I really don't think this is an issue, honestly.

[JG11Preusse]

but many others did saw that, so it is an isseue and not only after the patch, was also an issue before the patch

[Blackcat]

For what its worth I have never seen my own troops fire small arms against an unbuttoned tank and the only time I have noticed incoming small arms against my own armour is when I have forgotten to close them down (and in those cases I quite often see the tank commander killed).

I may have had a couple of occasions when enemy tripod mounted MG42s have fired on a buttoned tank, but I couldn't be sure - they may have been firing at the supporting infantry and the tank was hit by overs.

If this really is an issue I don't see it.

[JG11Preusse]

For what its worth I have never seen my own troops fire small arms against an unbuttoned tank and the only time I have noticed incoming small arms against my own armour is when I have forgotten to close them down (and in those cases I quite often see the tank commander killed).

I may have had a couple of occasions when enemy tripod mounted MG42s have fired on a buttoned tank, but I couldn't be sure - they may have been firing at the supporting infantry and the tank was hit by overs.

If this really is an issue I don't see it.

maybe because you are not the only player of this game and maybe because many people play many different ways ? some only play some scenarios, others play whole campains and others play tonns of quickbattles and test tis and that.

if you dont recognize something dont means that it dont exists or ?

[Blackcat]

"if you dont recognize something dont means that it dont exists or ?"

Hey, you have one experience and can post about it. I have a different experience, can't I post about it?