Rhino Tank Track Damage-Immobilization

[Statisoris]

Hi All,

I was playing a large US Assault quick battle in heavy Bocage country yesterday and had a force of 11 tanks with 3 Rhino tanks included in the mix. I had 2 Sherman Rhino M4A3-75-W-Earlies and one Stuart Rhino M5A1-Late. During my methodical approach to the objective area, I used my Rhino tanks to breach the hedgerows along the way, so the infantry could move more directly and not run all the way around the map to find hedge gaps.

After breaching about 2 rows, my Rhino tank track damage turned yellow. After 2 more breaches the track damage turned orange and after about 3-4 more breaches both my Sherman and the Stuart tracks broke down and they were Immobilized. Just FYI, I was being really careful with the tanks, driving them in "slow" through the bocage, not plowing through in "fast" or anything crazy. The other Sherman was pretty bad off and was creeping around the map due to its heavy track damage. I stopped using the last Sherman Rhino for breaching to avoid losing it to Immobilization. This all happened within about 15 minutes of starting the assault and I had only advanced about 40% of the way to the objective. Good thing I had a HQ Recon Platoon with some breaching charges to help out the infantry. The tanks had to take the direct approach and ended up in a head to head duel with Panthers, Stugs and a Marder guarding the main approach .

Do you all think this has been modeled correctly? Did the Rhino tanks historically break down really fast after busting through a couple hedgerows? I could understand an instantaneous/random thrown track, but not this cummulative thing. Maybe it was done in the cummulative fashion for some game balance/ease of gameplay reason.

I found this older thread on the forums about this issue, it seems others have encountered it also. http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=97174&page=2

[YankeeDog]

No, from my own experience operating tracked construction vehicles off-road (in forested areas for logging & land clearing), and what RL tankers have posted here on the forums, I think cumulative damage from crawling over bocage embankments is probably realistic.

The Rhino removes the top part of the embankment, but the tank still has to crawl over a what amounts to a big pile of of interwoven stumps, rocks and roots and that's going to be really hard on the tracks. Outright breaking or throwing a track is one possibility and will immobilize the vehicle right away, but there's also the chance of weakening the track linkage, partial breakage, and/or getting a bunches of big, tough roots and vines stuck in the tracks and/or the wheels (I've dealt with stuff like this; it can get really nasty if you let it go). Damage like this might not stop a tracked vehicle right away, but it may slow down the speed at which the vehicle can safely operate, and/or increase the chances of throwing or breaking a track in the near future.

Also, as a track takes wear and tear damage, it starts to make all sorts of godawful noises as it runs over the wheels. So an experienced driver knows when a track is on its last legs, and will probably slow down and drive more carefully until he can stop and repair things.

[dieseltaylor]

Useful stuff to know YD.

[winkelried]

Useful stuff to know YD.

Yes. Experienced the same thing. Probably realistic, but good to know. BTW happens also when you drive a tank across a small wall.

[Agua]

Yes. Experienced the same thing. Probably realistic, but good to know. BTW happens also when you drive a tank across a small wall.

or low hedge, or wire, ...

[MikeyD]

Track damage also has a 'game management' function as well, keeping people from doing the impossible. For example, without track damage modeled a Rhino could drive down an entire length of hedgerow clearing it all! Try that now and bad things are liable to happen to your tank around tile 4 or 5.

I'm reminded of a story out of Iraq a couple years ago. A Humvee commander and driver got into a fistfight (on-camera) after the driver had busted through a locked gate and pieces got under the truck & smashed the transmission case. Theoretically an armored Humvee should be able to bust open locked gates all day long. If you're reckless with the equipment 'stuff' just happens.

[mjkerner]

That's good information YD and Mikey D. One more example of the amazing intricacy of this game.

[Pak40]

Hey, I had a MkIV get immobilized on a paved road while going at a Fast speed. It was near the beginning of a battle and there no enemy units anywhere in LOS of it and there was not any artillery. It just threw a track. $hit happens.

[dieseltaylor]

MikeyD - I tried a Honey driving down a length of wire fence twice and it never damaged the fence other than the initial right angle hit. How come?

[WineCape]

MikeyD - I tried a Honey driving down a length of wire fence twice and it never damaged the fence other than the initial right angle hit. How come?

It could be that your tank driver was drunk and saw the wrong double row of fences? Drunk TC's are modeled at times.

[Statisoris]

Ok, good info, I didn't expect the Rhinos to be that easy to break down. Ill have to be more selective with their breaching use next game.

[GI Adelscott]

Rhino shermans can breach about 10 (+-1 probably) bocage before they brake their tracks, regardless the speed they drive, experience of leadership.

I did very few test but i think it could be have a little difference among models, but i can't assure that.

[dieseltaylor]

Track damage also has a 'game management' function as well, keeping people from doing the impossible. For example, without track damage modeled a Rhino could drive down an entire length of hedgerow clearing it all! Try that now and bad things are liable to happen to your tank around tile 4 or 5.

Driving down a length of bocage should be impossible. The mass of earth is reinforcing its strength. Also the straddling effect would be hugely dangerous for the Sherman going onto its belly with tracks in limbo.

And if someone could find any instance of this sort of behaviour I would be amazed but pleased to be proved wrong. Surely knocking over bocage at right angles and reversing to hit another section would be the correct way to simulate multiple sections being knocked out.

[womble]

Driving down a length of bocage should be impossible. The mass of earth is reinforcing its strength. Also the straddling effect would be hugely dangerous for the Sherman going onto its belly with tracks in limbo.

And if someone could find any instance of this sort of behaviour I would be amazed but pleased to be proved wrong. Surely knocking over bocage at right angles and reversing to hit another section would be the correct way to simulate multiple sections being knocked out.

DT, I believe that Mikey was saying that the specific, incremental damage was included to prevent such unrealistic operations occurring too often in game, since, as you so rightly say, doing it in real life would have been fraught with problems. Granted, if you get it 'right', you can perhaps squash things along their length in the game that you couldn't do in RL, but coding in a vector for allowable Rhino clearance for bocage is probably more work than coding bocage into a cumulative damage system that already handles all vehicles and all crash-throughable obstacles.

[dieseltaylor]

Fair enough womble. Perhaps the honest answer re coding is more helpful than a non RL example

[YankeeDog]

Rhino shermans can breach about 10 (+-1 probably) bocage before they brake their tracks, regardless the speed they drive, experience of leadership.

I did very few test but i think it could be have a little difference among models, but i can't assure that.

Then I would offer this minor niggle: Breaching speed and experience should make a difference.

Breaching bocage with a Rhino actually involved ramming the embankment with the nose of the tank to bury the blades, and then pushing through. This is something that CMBN does not show explicitly in the game animations. But there is a certain minimum speed that is necessary for the device to work; the tank can't just ease up to the embankment and lean its way through. But abstractly, if we assume that the slower movement speeds in the game represent a tank crew approaching more cautiously and taking more time to line up the approach, etc., then slower movement orders while breaching should cause less damage to the tracks, on average.

With regards to experience level, driving a tracked vehicle off-road takes a fair amount of of skill. An experienced driver and TC with good training and many hours in the vehicle should be better at choosing the right path, managing the brakes and throttle properly so as to put less stress on the tracks, preventing the vehicle from turning sideways when one track loses traction on loose soil, etc.

So, IMHO, speed and experience should cause some difference in average damage rate when breaching bocage, and especially vehicles driven by experienced crews should be somewhat less susceptible to track damage by terrain, bogging and immobilization in general. Perhaps not a huge difference, but a measurable one.

Not so sure the "leadership" modifier is really relevant here, though. AIUI this is intended to represent a leader's ability do things like pass info along the C2 chain. So I'm not sure this particular unit quality is relevant to breaching specifically.

But it's a minor issue; being able to create 10 breaches in one scenario with a single tank is quite a lot, and giving Veteran crews the ability to nurse their tank through a couple more breaches, on average, isn't going to be a game-changer.

[womble]

But it's a minor issue; being able to create 10 breaches in one scenario with a single tank is quite a lot, and giving Veteran crews the ability to nurse their tank through a couple more breaches, on average, isn't going to be a game-changer.

It's not based on any systematic testing, but my feeling is that 10 breaches is quite a high number. I'd say it was more like half that. In "Breaching the Bocage" I certainly had a tank immobilised after 5, and the others that had made 3 or 4 breaches were showing serious track damage. Don't know what factors differ...

[Blackcat]

Ten breaches is a big ask. Back in May I did some testing and the following is a post I made at the time:

"OK, there is a probability model at work regarding track damage and Rhino tanks.

I set up a test rack with 8 Rhino's and 16 lines of High Bocage to be crossed. Every tank took one level of track damage at the first crossing. At the third 2 tanks took anonther level of damage. At the fourth those 6 tanks which crossed the third level unscathed all took a second level of damage. At the Fith one took a third level of damage and the other 7 got through OK. At the 7th 3 tanks were immobilised whilst tring to force the breach. At the 8th three more were immobilised and the last two went down with total track failure at the 9th. Neither crew quality or speed of advance made any difference. On subsequent runs very similar results were achieved (none ever made beyond the nineth line).

By contrast running through fences (wire or wood) never resulted in more than one level of damage in crossing all 16 lines.

So use your scarce Rhino tanks carefully becuase if you don't you stand a good chance of having them immobilised."

[Statisoris]

Then I would offer this minor niggle: Breaching speed and experience should make a difference.

Agreed, you would think an experienced tank crew and driver would be much more knowledgeable about the limitations and various quirks of their machine vs a crew that has just been "textbook trained" on their tank. This should make some difference in chance to eventually become immobilized. Maybe still accumulate dammage at the same rate and slow the tank down, but have a lower chance to become completley immobilized after the same number of breaches.

[Sakai007]

I lost a Panther today in mission 2 of Panzer Lehr campaign. After using charges on the bocage, I quicked through the opening and threw a track. Then I tried to get a half-track through the same way and broke that one. I now know to slow Hey, a little rhyme to remind me to slow er down a bit.

[mjkerner]

OK, admit it. Really, raise your hands. How many of us even bothered to think any more about Rhino tanks before the game's release than simply "I wonder if they'll be included?" Never in my wildest dreams would I have thought we'd be discussing in such minute detail (and this goes for many other threads in this forum) as how many hedgerows can the average Rhino plow through, etc., etc., etc.

Well, BFC did, and that just fukking amazes the hell out of me!:eek:

[dieseltaylor]

I thought about it a lot : )

But then it is a pet topic for the last 4 years. Perhaps familiarity with bocage type hedges means I feel aggrieved in how thye are portrayed. In CMAK an M8 would go through in about 10 seconds. Given I had read a US tankers account of what a real bastard it was to charge and bounce off etc etc I thought it rather underplayed in the game.

I blame the propaganda news reels showing M3 Honey's charging through mini-hedges conveniently located near passing cameramen : )

[MikeyD]

There was a lot of internal debate about whether a rhino should be a 'smash-through' thing or 'grind-trough' thing.

A line found in a contemporary report said it took about 3 minutes to bust through. That resolved nothing because we don't know what that 3 minutes entailed. Just grinding doggedly through the berm or carefully positioning yourself for a fast run-up? Even a youtube clip of the Culin hedgecutter at work didn't help because the clip was edited and it looked like they were filming a second attempt. The topic's divided us into warring factions.