Panzerschreck Teams.

[James Crowley]

I was under the impression that the second man in the team, as well as carrying ammunition, acted as the loader.

Most photographs show this to be the case and, given the awkward nature of the weapon, the only way to achieve a reasonable rate of fire.

However, in CMBN the second man basically swans off and takes potshots with his rifle; only the operator is seen to load the weapon. I thought that, to conserve animations, the loading procedure was fudged but the description as to what each man is doing clearly indicates that the second man is firing his rifle (in a current PBEM, at the vehicle that the 'schreck operator is trying to shoot at!). I have seen this happen several times and, conversely, have not seen the second man ever load.

Of course this is not based on a huge sample of observations, so perhaps I have only seen what is only occaisional behaviour.

So is the second man in the team essentially superfluous; his prescence does not enhance the rate of fire nor add anything to the work of the 'faust?

[YankeeDog]

Yep; I brought this up a little while ago. Hoolaman graciously offered to raise the issue in the beta tester forums, so it's definitely being looked at, and I'm hopeful we'll see an adjustment in the next patch or two.

Original thread, for your reference:

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=98552

[James Crowley]

Thanks for that.

Good that it is being looked at; not a huge thing but would feel 'right' if fixed.

[BigJ62]

In a game I was playing the guy carrying the shrek was killed and the second guy gave buddy aid and then picked up the shrek and eventually destroyed a tank so I would not say he is useless.

[De Savage]

Have anyone seen machinegunner's loader loading the MG? What about guns? Nice if they add loader function.

[womble]

Have anyone seen machinegunner's loader loading the MG? What about guns? Nice if they add loader function.

Not sure I've seen any actual animation, but I'm pretty sure there's a rifleman other than the gunner in US MMG squads who's always 'in attendance' on the gun, rather than up providing extra firepower.

[YankeeDog]

Yes; there is a loader for belt-fed MGs, and with the HMG42 teams at least, they do pause firing every 200 rounds or so for barrel swap & belt change -- give an HMG team an Area Fire order, sit on in for 2-3 minutes, and you'll hear/see it happen.

[Michael Emrys]

Have anyone seen machinegunner's loader loading the MG? What about guns?

No, but I did see an LMG gunner reload his weapon tonight. I thought that was kind of cool.

Michael

[James Crowley]

From the sound of another thread, this didn't get fixed in the patch?

[YankeeDog]

Apparently not, from what I've seen. Here's hoping for 1.02....

[JG11Preusse]

In a game I was playing the guy carrying the shrek was killed and the second guy gave buddy aid and then picked up the shrek and eventually destroyed a tank so I would not say he is useless.

not useless, bt it would be better that he takes the wepon itselfs or the player had the ability to pick it up.

the part with the first aid i only found out by luck. in many other cases, i walked trough the battlefield with ammonition only, because the fallen teammate still had the schreck.

after i found out that this first aid operation will let the second man take the gun also costs me often the whole team, because the dead or woundet guy all time lies in a dangerous zone (thats maybe why he was hit )

[Magpie_Oz]

Most photographs show this to be the case and, given the awkward nature of the weapon, the only way to achieve a reasonable rate of fire.

Don't know that rate of fire is what you want with a SRAAW, the crew would have only carried half a dozen or so rounds with them so maybe the number 2's time was better spent protecting the shooter so he could steady his aim? Also once you fired I'd expect the team to rapidly displace to a new position so reloading would be done after that?

[TheBlackHand]

I would suggest that there should be a much greater backblast as well. This backblast from the bazooka to the panzerfaust to the panzerschreck should be something that might give away the firing position to pretty much everyone in direct LOS from a hundred yards or so. The panzerfaust looks especially smoky. The zooks, not quite as much, but the dust that they kick up should have the same effect. I would assume that environmental factors would come into play.

Evidence:

Firing the Panzerfaust.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9elpbW4c18.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEF4_OYrl2w.

[funkeesax]

Another annoying thing is when a mortar is given a movement order, and then ordered to deploy and given an area fire order. While the mortar is deploying, the rifles within the mortar squad open fire, giving away its position. Not a problem in real time, but it is problematic during WEGO play. Would be excellent if this behaviour could be disabled and/or toggled, for all specialist teams.

[Battlefront.com]

Due to the complexities of animations and TacAI for loading rear loading man portable tube type AT rockets (including the modern RPG-29), the loader's responsibilities are abstracted. His presence does three things:

1. Reduces reload time

2. Offers close defense protection

3. Can man weapon if it's dropped due to gunner casualty

When one of the tow men is KO'd then all three things listed above go away.

Steve

[Humbug]

If the loader is abstracted then couldn't you at least prevent him from using his weapon while the gunner is reloading and/or targeting something? No animations needed. Him running around shooting his rifle when he should be busy doing other things just produces silly and almost always unwanted results.

[womble]

3. Can man weapon if it's dropped due to gunner casualty

I've seen it happen that the second (M7-armed) member of a split AT team will leave the bazooka behind rather than replace (one of) his rifles with it and some bombs. Which is a shame. I suppose it might have been that the zook got damaged by whatever killed the original bearer, but one of them at least was tagged by a sniper...

[Magpie_Oz]

Evidence:

Firing the Panzerfaust.

Just as an aside, do you think that the first of those videos is a modern re-enactment and the second a real one?

The quality of the first doesn't look very 1940's to me and the camera is surprisingly steady for someone who can actually see an enemy tank. The blast effect on the tank doesn't look right either.

Also in the first one the weapon is fired off the shoulder like the modern M72 is but the second video shows the firers holding it under their arm as I believe was the Wehrmacht doctrine.

?????

I note too the Belon Cooper Video shows a burning Panther from the famous Cologne Pershing video

[YankeeDog]

Due to the complexities of animations and TacAI for loading rear loading man portable tube type AT rockets (including the modern RPG-29), the loader's responsibilities are abstracted. His presence does three things:

1. Reduces reload time

2. Offers close defense protection

3. Can man weapon if it's dropped due to gunner casualty

When one of the tow men is KO'd then all three things listed above go away.

Steve

Ya, but the problem I see right now is that the #2 is currently able to do your #2 and #1 simultaneously. This is, the #2 will fire his personal firearm right through the load-aim-fire sequence of the rocket AT weapon, without interruption. Unless CMBN is modeling risley jugglers as the #2 in AT teams, I don't see how this is possible.

From what I've seen described in the FMs and shown on training films, loading a zook was 4-hand operation (i.e., requiring the complete attention of two men) for 8-10 seconds. I would assume that the Panzershreck is similar. I'm sure one guy could do it by himself if he had to, but it would certainly take significantly longer, and/or require him to expose himself to a considerably greater extent to reload the weapon.

It's similar to belt-fed MGs, which the game currently correctly models as requiring a gunner and asst. gunner for optimum performance; the same behavior should apply to rocket AT weapons.

To be clear, I'm not necessarily asking for a new animation of the #2 AT soldier removing the safety pin, shoving the rocket up the pipe and then slapping the rocketeer on the helmet. If such eye candy can be added, so much the better. But I understand adding such animations is time-consuming. I'd be perfectly happy if the #2 just lay prone or kneeled next to the rocketeer and did not fire his personal firearm through the load-aim-fire sequence.

[Narses]

Just as an aside, do you think that the first of those videos is a modern re-enactment and the second a real one?

The quality of the first doesn't look very 1940's to me and the camera is surprisingly steady for someone who can actually see an enemy tank. The blast effect on the tank doesn't look right either.

Also in the first one the weapon is fired off the shoulder like the modern M72 is but the second video shows the firers holding it under their arm as I believe was the Wehrmacht doctrine.

?????

I note too the Belon Cooper Video shows a burning Panther from the famous Cologne Pershing video

Your thoughts seem correct especially on the holding of the faust. I note on the first video as you said the clean look. Also no other Germans anywhere in view. Many of the other videos are obviouly authentic like the GI firing one.

[TheBlackHand]

Just as an aside, do you think that the first of those videos is a modern re-enactment and the second a real one?

I think the first video is pretty obviously a reenactment. However, some of the tank footage looks quite realistic. I put it in there for an example of the copious backblast from the Panzerfaust.

[Battlefront.com]

The Loader shouldn't be firing his personal weapon except in close range defense. I'm going to see (again) if that can be tweaked. Having said that, remember that once the AT launcher is loaded the Loader is completely free to do whatever. He's only occupied during the actual reloading process. Which only takes a couple of seconds to achieve.

To load a Bazooka, Schreck, RPG-29, etc. correctly you do need 4 hands. Even the Javelin's optimal loading procedure is 4 hands. However, it can be loaded with 2 hands. It just is far less efficient and effective compared to 4 hands.

Steve

[YankeeDog]

The Loader shouldn't be firing his personal weapon except in close range defense. I'm going to see (again) if that can be tweaked. Having said that, remember that once the AT launcher is loaded the Loader is completely free to do whatever. He's only occupied during the actual reloading process. Which only takes a couple of seconds to achieve.

To load a Bazooka, Schreck, RPG-29, etc. correctly you do need 4 hands. Even the Javelin's optimal loading procedure is 4 hands. However, it can be loaded with 2 hands. It just is far less efficient and effective compared to 4 hands.

Steve

Thanks for the response. I think the issue may partially be exactly what constitutes "close range defense" -- since zooks especially are most effective at ranges of 100m or less, you're often trying to sneak them pretty close to enemy units, and this may trigger the #2's "close defense" routine.

But I think I respectfully disagree with you that "once the AT launcher is loaded the Loader is completely free to do whatever...". From what I've seen in training films at the like, the loader generally is pretty occupied with making sure he's out of the way of the backblast when the zook/shreck is about to fire. As such, I don't see him getting many (if any) shots off with his personal firearm during this time. Maybe once the rocket is downrange, but by then, depending on the effect of the first round, he may already be occupied with getting the next round ready....

[Magpie_Oz]

I think the first video is pretty obviously a reenactment. However, some of the tank footage looks quite realistic. I put it in there for an example of the copious backblast from the Panzerfaust.

It is certainly a real tank but not a real enemy tank manned by Soviets and filmed by Germans.

I was meaning that if the whole video is staged we can't take much credence from the amount of backblast as that is fabricated as well.

I'd even go so far as to say as the backblast in the "real" video is actually far greater than the first.

[TheBlackHand]

Well, OK. I actually just included it because I thought it was a pretty cool clip. Fake or not.

The other clips are most definitely not falsified and they do show the sort of backblast that would/should be evident in real life, as well as on the CM battlefield.