Wargamers wargame

[TheBlackHand]

let go of some of the CMX1 expectations

That's what I'm afraid of. I'm not entirely buying what I hear as the CM:BN replacement for terrain information via CMx1.

Well, actually . . . I am. I bought it. We'll see if an enjoyable wargaming experience is one of those CMx1 expectations that I'll have to let go of. I certainly hope not . . . but sometimes expecting the worst can lead to many pleasent surprises.

Where do those types of answers come from in the real world?

Uhh, they come from the real world. One example cited "sticking your finger in it".

I actuallly might like the idea of not being exactly sure of what is soft and what isn't. I see Mord's point on this and I'm hoping that it will turn out to be a good thing rather than a bad thing. I'm hoping that the environment itself will be enough to give me a reasonably good answer on how to tackle certain terrain.

[MengJiao]

I actuallly might like the idea of not being exactly sure of what is soft and what isn't. I see Mord's point on this and I'm hoping that it will turn out to be a good thing rather than a bad thing. I'm hoping that the environment itself will be enough to give me a reasonably good answer on how to tackle certain terrain.

You can specify dry conditions in your scenarios. I've been setting my scenarios in mid June right after the big storm so things are still wet or damp, but no longer muddy.

Which reminds me I have an August scenario set to damp. I might want to fix that.

[mjkerner]

You can't jump out of a tank and stick your finger in the ground...but what you can do is study the terrain you are in (because it is what it is), check the weather in game, check the conditions in your menu tab and use a common sense decision as to whether or not moving your tank through that area is a good idea.

C'mon man...be a little more positive!

Mord.

Absolutely, Bro!

[sburke]

That's what I'm afraid of. I'm not entirely buying what I hear as the CM:BN replacement for terrain information via CMx1.

Well, actually . . . I am. I bought it. We'll see if an enjoyable wargaming experience is one of those CMx1 expectations that I'll have to let go of. I certainly hope not . . . but sometimes expecting the worst can lead to many pleasent surprises.

LOL You will be assimilated!

My only advice is to allow yourself to get immersed in it. Don't try to play it like a hex based boardgame per se. There is a lot more to it than that and you are far better off just making judgement calls on what you can see than trying to say, well it is a grain hex and there are 6 intervening grain hexes so I should have X value of concealment etc etc.

Be patient with the game and with the command structure, it is very very flexible, and will probably annoy the hell out of you until you have your first "AHA!" moment when something clicks for you. I am still working on things like, setting covered arcs, what is too short that I don't get to spring my ambush before being spotted, but what is too long in that it gets sprung too early. When should I actually target something versus letting my sniper chose his own (That particular item comes from targeting a jeep loaded with an MG crew. The driver and crew bailed and my sniper continued to target the Jeep as he could still see it, but not the former occupants).

I know you have probably heard it enough, but this really isn't just CMBO version 2. It is a completely new game and you will have to relearn what you think you knew. AT guns are a lot more effective (I have a crew right now that broadsword56 can attest to how much small arms fire that gun mantlet can absorb ). You can actually apply real world tactics and expect realistic results...and the occasional complete snafu.

If you go in with an open mind and don't try to run chart probability calculations on every move but instead just try basing your commands on the tactics you want to employ I think you will find this game is worth every penny you spent and then some.

[Holman]

Uhh, they come from the real world. One example cited "sticking your finger in it".

My point is the larger issue: the soldier/tanker on the ground can only know what he can see, just as the CM player can only know what he can see. While it's true that the player can't touch the ground, I think we'll very quickly come to recognize which terrains are likely to be passable under which ground conditions. A little experience with the game will dispel 95% of our uncertainty about terrain, which is more than real tankers ever got.

After all, the real tanker doesn't know whether the field he's about to cross is solid here at the edge but becomes sticker halfway across. And he certainly can't reach out with a magic mouse pointer to learn that the ground on the other side of the hedgerow is actually more passable fifty meters to the left of where he plans to go. He can't even see the other side at all, as we can.

Totally agree. In the end, we'll have to rely on good map makers.

[crsutt]

I think you'll like it if you let go of some of the CMX1 expectations...it's a different game with different fidelity. There's no rationalizing in what I said...it's just fact...there's no way that BFC or anyone else could give you an accurate example with a pic of what kind of terrain you are in when there are probably a couple thousand variations, easy. Then people would be bitching that the little pic showed grass but on the map there were two trees, some brush, some grass and tree stumps...

If it's raining, and the ground conditions are rated wet or damp or whatever that's enough to tell you there's a good chance you are gonna bog once off road. You'll have a better chance of bogging in wet dirt than you would wet grass, yes? That's pretty much known by most people that have driven a vehicle. I see what you are saying, but honestly, I never noticed or missed it since I started playing CMX2 games...I go by what I see on the screen and the surrounding conditions.

Mord.

Yes, a good point and just playing the game for a few days I am learning that this is not the old CMAK. I am already discarding those old expectations and realizing how fantastic the new version is.

But... what about those highlighted bases?.....

[crsutt]

There is a mod for bright bases in the Repository.

Best

TRL

Excellent, I will look for it. Do you have the link?

[Mord]

That's what I'm afraid of. I'm not entirely buying what I hear as the CM:BN replacement for terrain information via CMx1.

Well, actually . . . I am. I bought it. We'll see if an enjoyable wargaming experience is one of those CMx1 expectations that I'll have to let go of. I certainly hope not . . . but sometimes expecting the worst can lead to many pleasent surprises.

Uhh, they come from the real world. One example cited "sticking your finger in it".

I actuallly might like the idea of not being exactly sure of what is soft and what isn't. I see Mord's point on this and I'm hoping that it will turn out to be a good thing rather than a bad thing. I'm hoping that the environment itself will be enough to give me a reasonably good answer on how to tackle certain terrain.

Now, you sound like you are being open minded! Much better than what I was replying to in the other thread.

Look man, LOL, I REALLY hope you have fun! We can continue arguing back and forth in the threads but like you just said, I hope you are pleasantly surprised...but the first step towards that is to realize you are now in a much higher fidelity game...a big step in that process is to unwrap your head around CMX1's way and openly delve into CMX2's way. Give it a couple solid weeks of game play before you really judge it. Study the manual, ask some questions on things that aren't clear or confusing and then see if it doesn't grab you.

And don't take any of my replies in the other thread personally, I like to argue sometimes but I wasn't trying to be mean...so, if I came off sarcastic, no offense meant.

Here's to hoping you are pleasantly surprised!

Mord.

[Mord]

Excellent, I will look for it. Do you have the link?

here you go crsutt...in case you haven't gotten it yet.

http://www.battlefront.com/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=314&func=select&id=43&orderby=2&page=4

Mord.

[Charlie Marlow]

Still not understanding why we can't get a ID in the terrain. If there are multiple terrain types present, then list them all. I don't care about the thousands of possible combos, if there is mud, tall grass, and a fence within the 8m tile, then just list "Mud, Tall Grass, Fence". No problem.

This would be of great help to me, since I really can't tell most of the open ground types apart right now. I also have real problems with low bocage and hedges. Which has significant game implications.

[Stalintc]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Moved_My_Cheese%3F

[Mord]

Still not understanding why we can't get a ID in the terrain. If there are multiple terrain types present, then list them all. I don't care about the thousands of possible combos, if there is mud, tall grass, and a fence within the 8m tile, then just list "Mud, Tall Grass, Fence". No problem.

This would be of great help to me, since I really can't tell most of the open ground types apart right now. I also have real problems with low bocage and hedges. Which has significant game implications.

LOL so if you are looking at mud, tall grass and a fence on the game screen you need a pic of mud, tall grass and a fence in the UI to tell you that's what you are looking at?

Now the bocage/hedge issue I can understand. lots of people are having problems telling them apart...not even sure I know which is which.

Mord.

[Charlie Marlow]

LOL so if you are looking at mud, tall grass and a fence on the game screen you need a pic of mud, tall grass and a fence in the UI to tell you that's what you are looking at?

No.

I want the WORDS "mud, tall grass, fence" somewhere in the interface, so I can tell what the terrain is. Too many of the terrain types look the same.

[JonS]

Just mod the terrain tiles so they have the words "mud, tall grass, fence" as part of the texture.

[Charlie Marlow]

Just mod the terrain tiles so they have the words "mud, tall grass, fence" as part of the texture.

Thank you SO much for the helpful suggestion.

[sburke]

Thank you SO much for the helpful suggestion.

yeah that was pretty bad, funny but bad. :-P Not sure you will really get an answer that is going to truly appeal to you. It is like the targeting issue. When you select a squad what are you gonna do, follow 11 different targeting lines as each individual can theoretically be shooting at something different (and it is only right at that moment). CM 2 takes some getting used to.

Part of it is a simple issue of gameplay. I can generally tell marsh and mud at a glance, if it's raining is part of the scenario and i just go from there on what my expectation of being able to move cross country is. That is just my style of play and trying to identify specifically what that particular tile is takes away some of the immersion for me. It makes me look at hexes (or squares, or action spots) in a way I like to avoid. That isn't for everyone though. Perhaps that is something BFC could include in the next round, honestly I haven't a clue only they could answer that. All you can do is ask and you have done that.

[stikkypixie]

You can also test it, by sending out a jeep or halftrack, and if those suckers are moving way slower than normal or getting bogged down, maybe it's not the best route to take.

[Charlie Marlow]

One example is the first battle of the Raff - training campaign.

In the field to the right front, the one just before the short hedgerows, there IIRC is a darker green slighly elevated spot in the middle. I couldn't give orders for one of my Shermans to move onto that location. I still have no clue as to what it was.

[MOSwas71331]

I'd be a lot happier with the map if I could easily spot small gaps in a hedgerow. I've repeatedly tried the posted "beat the demo" instructions / suggestions, and I haven't found any places where a scout team could pass through a hedgerow. I've scrolled up and down the hedgerow next to the road without finding a single small gap. When I place a waypoint next to the hedgerow on the road side and the next waypoint near the hedgerow but on the opposite side, the unit will just move along the hedgerow to a wide gap, move to the other side of the row and then move to the final position. Of course that movement takes minutes rather than seconds.

[Bruce Robert]

Thanks for the input into these issues. I suppose on person's immersion is another person's "I can't tell what the hell that is." And the individual info is easy to disregard for those - myself - who find it cluttering, and easy to look at for those who don't.

Not quite sure the distinction between a wargame and a wargame simulation. They are both/all games that happen to model a historical period in different ways; better or worse is in the eye of the player. Both are abstractions as both are digital models of what was. I like this model, perhaps not as much as a more abstract model, but it is quite stunning in its representation. And more to the point, a lot of fun. As it is after all, a game, if not fun, for all its other attributes, pointless. But as I said, a game that is a lot of fun in its uniqueness and immersion qualities.

But to my initial points, i still hold that these would make it a "better" game from my humble perspective.

Bruce G

[TheBlackHand]

. . . the first step towards that is to realize you are now in a much higher fidelity game...a big step in that process is to unwrap your head around CMX1's way and openly delve into CMX2's way . . .

I realize that, and I'm going to do my best to make it happen. However, it will be admittedly difficult to wrap my head around things which seemed like common sense in CMx1, but which have been left out of CM:BN . . . and which, when mentioned on the forums brings down a torrent of derision.

Well, maybe not a "torrent" . . . but it certainly does seem to irk some people when perceived deficiencies are brought up.

Don't worry about me taking anything personally though. I like to use a lot of flowery language and I can be a smart ass too . . . it makes these sort of conversations more interesting. At the end of the day, it's just a game. Nothing to lose sleep over . . . or friends.

On second thought, I may lose plenty of sleep over the game tonight. I just got the full version this afternoon and have it alllll locked & loaded.

[Mord]

I realize that, and I'm going to do my best to make it happen. However, it will be admittedly difficult to wrap my head around things which seemed like common sense in CMx1, but which have been left out of CM:BN . . . and which, when mentioned on the forums brings down a torrent of derision.

Well, maybe not a "torrent" . . . but it certainly does seem to irk some people when perceived deficiencies are brought up.

LOL. Well it's more of some of us getting frustrated with having the same arguments for the 100th time. We hashed out a ton during the CMSF years and I guess revisiting the same arguments again, 100 times in CMBN, was getting tiring...I always try to be helpful so if I was less than that, my apologies.

Don't worry about me taking anything personally though. I like to use a lot of flowery language and I can be a smart ass too . . . it makes these sort of conversations more interesting. At the end of the day, it's just a game. Nothing to lose sleep over . . . or friends.

On second thought, I may lose plenty of sleep over the game tonight. I just got the full version this afternoon and have it alllll locked & loaded.

Just remember if you see any real weirdness going on, stuff will be patched, they are working on one as I type over known issues. They did a helluva a job fixing CMSF and listening to our concerns.

Well, good luck. If you have any questions or need any help, PM me and I'll do what I can to help you through the transition. A couple weeks from now and you may well have sweated out the old addiction and replaced it with this new one.

Mord.

[Blackcat]

... but which have been left out of CM:BN ...

Just to repeat this, nothing has been left out of CMBN. It is not CMx1 updated. It is an entirely new game. It took me a fair while to get my head around this point but once I did I found it much easier to play CMx2 and much more enjoyable. Constantly refering back to an old game and how it used to be possible to do things is not a useful mindset to have when learning CMx2.