siffo998 Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 I`ve already posted this question at the first impression topic but did not get any satisfieing answers. I`ve played the mission closing the pocket and one of my panther tank was hit 3 times from an m10 tank destroyer. all 3 hits were deflected from the frontal upper hull plate. no partial penetration and no spalling (at least the hit text did not mention it). but after each hit the radio and the optics of the tank were damaged more and more. my question is how could a deflecting hit to the hull damage the optics or the radio of the tank (no explosion or partial penetration just deflected) ? as far as i know the antenna for the radio is mounted on the backsite of the tank and the optics hole for the gunner is in the turret right beside the main gun. Both parts werent hit during this encounter but still both optics and radio did get damage ? maybe somebody could explain this situation to me because it seems kinda strange from my point of view !? did not want to annoy the designers but iam just very interested in ww2 tank warfare and maybe i can learn something new thanks in advance 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaBellum Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 The mere impact shock of an AT shell could cause all sorts of internal damage, from misaligning the optics and knocking out the radio to rupturing the fuel lines and damaging the engine. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 The above is also a reason why dropping arty on tanks isn't a bad idea. You may not knock it out through the top armour but bits may stop working reducing it's combat effectiveness. This will be the big difference between CMx1 and CMx2 tank combat. A lot more subtle (or not so) things will go wrong with tanks taking hits even though at a quick glance they may seem to shrug them off. A CMx2 only player is more likely to be careful with their tanks understanding this. The German big cats will be less effective under CMx2. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siffo998 Posted May 13, 2011 Author Share Posted May 13, 2011 thanks for the explanation... never heard of it before... but as always said: you will never stop learning !! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Also, the radio is mounted in between the driver and the...radio operator. The bow machinegunner is the radio man. Remember, this is back when tuning a radio took a specially trained person. As well, the radios were large and filled with glass tubes. They had actual crystals for the frequencies, as well. A large impact, say an energetic chunk of metal, could - and would - damage that large radio. Throwing off its calibration, burning out a tube or two, etc. Optics? Similar. They were held in place with set screws. Okay, more than that, but that's the gist. A wallop to the vehicle could - and would - misalign the gunsights. Does the game have it exactly right? Probably not. However, it is modelled. This is why you don't want to sit there and just take hits that don't penetrate. Your vehicle will get degraded. Just like they really did. Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Not in the CM scale but the large bombing missions preceding the St Lo attacks wrecked the little axis armour left. Most axis tanks that weren't "knocked out" had all sorts of other problems from the amount of HE going off in the vicinity. In CMSF you didn't want you tanks taking hits from anything ever. CMBN not as critical but you won't want to leave tanks hanging out there even if stuff is bouncing of it. It is also possible that the modelling is too sensitive or not sensitive and it could change in the future. Too early to start those sort of arguments though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandur Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 i did not liked that in CMSF in the first place. but it was worse there, they did throw track damage into the mix. you had some deflecting hits and suddenly your tracks where all banged up. i did not watch this in the demo so far as i had only one tank hit in the training mission by a schreck and it blew up. but i expect similar results to CMSF´s abrams hit by RED tanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siffo998 Posted May 13, 2011 Author Share Posted May 13, 2011 Not in the CM scale but the large bombing missions preceding the St Lo attacks wrecked the little axis armour left. Most axis tanks that weren't "knocked out" had all sorts of other problems from the amount of HE going off in the vicinity. I would have understand if the optics and the radio (and maybe even more ) would have been damaged if a plane dropped a 500 kg bomb directly beside the tank, no doubt. but in my case it was "only" a deflecting hit from a ap shell. Until now i thougt that the deflection of the shell would vanish most of the kinetic energy of the impact. If the shell would have partially penetrated the armor and exploded, then their is obviously more kinetic energy that could do harm to instruments inside the tank. But these are only my 50 cent. I have also not tested it in real life. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LemoN Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 I would have understand if the optics and the radio (and maybe even more ) would have been damaged if a plane dropped a 500 kg bomb directly beside the tank, no doubt. but in my case it was "only" a deflecting hit from a ap shell. Until now i thougt that the deflection of the shell would vanish most of the kinetic energy of the impact. If the shell would have partially penetrated the armor and exploded, then their is obviously more kinetic energy that could do harm to instruments inside the tank. But these are only my 50 cent. I have also not tested it in real life. Remember that both a radio and optics have to be connected to the outside world. In case of the radio the antenna could be damaged/destroyed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siffo998 Posted May 13, 2011 Author Share Posted May 13, 2011 Remember that both a radio and optics have to be connected to the outside world. In case of the radio the antenna could be damaged/destroyed. yes i`ve thought about it but as i`ve stated in my original post the antenna of the panther is mounted on the rear of the tank and the tank received a deflecting hit on the frontal upper plate. so it is rather unlogic that the antenna could have been damaged. at least from my perspective 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barkhorn1x Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 yes i`ve thought about it but as i`ve stated in my original post the antenna of the panther is mounted on the rear of the tank and the tank received a deflecting hit on the frontal upper plate. so it is rather unlogic that the antenna could have been damaged. at least from my perspective Did you miss c3K's post above? Read it to find your answer. A tank's armor may be able to shrug off a hit but not all of it's equipment could. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostRider3/3 Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 One of the cool things I found out in CMBN thus far is... nothing is safe! LOL In the tutorial I had to abandoned one of my Shermans near the Manor House due to AT fire and my tracks being blown apart. The crew left and sought cover in the nearby trees. The AT gun shot a couple rounds at the Crew, then turned their attention to the empty sherman... Maybe they did not know it was abandoned but proceded to engage it until it was brewed up... dang... merciless I tell you... LOL I wanted my crew to go back in the tank and use the .50 on the AT gun.. thought I could sneak them back.. Nope! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siffo998 Posted May 13, 2011 Author Share Posted May 13, 2011 Did you miss c3K's post above? Read it to find your answer. A tank's armor may be able to shrug off a hit but not all of it's equipment could. hey you do not need to get rude. I`ve already read the post you mentioned i was just curious because as i alread have stated: until now i thought that when a shell hits the tank and gets deflected their could be all or at least most of the energy absorbed so that no equipment would be damaged. but ok before somedbody kills me i will stop discussing this topic. It was just personel interest. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barkhorn1x Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 hey you do not need to get rude. I`ve already read the post you mentioned i was just curious because as i alread have stated: until now i thought that when a shell hits the tank and gets deflected their could be all or at least most of the energy absorbed so that no equipment would be damaged. but ok before somedbody kills me i will stop discussing this topic. It was just personel interest. Didn't mean to be rude. Sorry if I cam off that way. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpie_Oz Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 but ok before somedbody kills me i will stop discussing this topic. Don't do that, it hadn't occurred to me that a radio could be damaged by shock alone, questions like this are the best resource of the forums. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Oh! Another theory about the damaged radio! Radio antennae need to be insulated from the steel hull to work. That usually means fragile porcelain bases that could get damaged in all sorts of ways. That's my theory and I'm sticking with it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Yep, older tanks were not insulated from shock the way today's are. You hit an old one smartly with a big shell, even one that does not penetrate, and the noise could definitely get the crew's attention and the shock wave propagated through all the metal components could really break up tube-type electronics, among other things. Optics are sometimes rubber mounted for shock insulation, but not always in these early beasts. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Some huge percentage of "knocked out" Shermans were put back into service again, often times quicker than it took the recovery teams to find the tanks in the first place. Minor damage, even the threat of damage, often caused crews to bail prematurely. When you had an average of 10 seconds to bail out or roast like a marshmallow, you tend to be a little on the jumpy side when there's a loud CLANG! Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 WW2 era radios would often stop working if you looked at them crosseyed These were very complicated pieces of equipment with extremely delicate components. Vacuum tubes probably didn't take much to shatter. Dislodging things from inside probably wasn't all that hard to do either. Remember, these aren't the "solid state" radios of today with a tiny circuit board and nothing particularly fragile on them. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Some nice photos here: http://www.armyradio.com/arsc/customer/home.php?cat=71 When I was a kid my Army sergeant dad would bring home all sorts of neat things for me to keep as souvenirs and two I had for a long time were wooden felt-lined spare radio tube carriers that held 20-30 tubes of various sizes in them. Apparently, the tubes were breaking all the time and the vehicle radios in particular took a beating while in motion, let alone being subjected to impact shocks in an AFV. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibsonm Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 tube-type electronics Except of course that “electronics“ actually replaced valves / tubes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpie_Oz Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Except of course that “electronics“ actually replaced valves / tubes. Actually "solid state" electronics replaced Vacuum tube (valve) electronics. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Actually "solid state" electronics replaced Vacuum tube (valve) electronics. I'm with you on that one "Electronics" has been around as a word in use since the 1930's at least. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siffo998 Posted May 14, 2011 Author Share Posted May 14, 2011 don`t be afraid i am not back for discussion but i`ve found a very interesting german lehrfilm (training film) on youtube that at least partially convinced me of the fragility of tank optics. the film is a training film for panther tank crews in the kursk offensive mainly against infantry. but it clearly shows at 1:24 onwards that even gunfire could break the angled vision mirrors of the commander (but the crew has replacement vision mirrors onboard for direct replacement.) Even if it not clearly is statet to the damaging of the gunners optics it at least convinced me that the sights of a tank are more fragile that i`ve thought. Very interesting to watch even if produced propaganda like it clearly shows the dangers for a tank crew. The link i`ve posted is translated in english. The original longer version is in german. just search "panzer im angriff". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Russian infantry would fire at a tanks vision ports as after a while the number of replacement vision blocks would run out and the German tank would become more and more blinded. Of course you do have to be a bit nutty to be that close - unless you are a sniper or have an ATR< 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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