Bertram Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Finns found crowbars quite effective as well. Of course you have to have Finnish troops to get a result like that with just a crowbar.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Of course you have to have Finnish troops to get a result like that with just a crowbar.... It was a slow day in the war and they got a little bored. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other Means Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 I think it's been proved that that photo was caused by the Soviet crew that had dropped their keys inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mord Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 That must've been one helluva hanger... Mord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vark Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Actually that photo shows Finnish modlers contemplating Airfix's latest addition to their 1:1 armour range. Man on the right: "We'll be high as kites after we finish gluing this bugger together". Man on the left: "Christ I need to sit down after cutting all those pieces off the sprue!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gpig Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Man on the right: "I'm glad there is no windscreen in this kit. I ALWAYS get glue on the windscreen." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dietrich Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 So tank crews didn't typically latch/lock their hatches to prevent grenades being simply being dropped in by daring enemy infantry (like in SPR)? And would the crew of tank that had been mobility-killed but wasn't on fire bail out more or less immediately, especially knowing that there were enemy infantry crawling all over the tank (again, like in SPR)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 So tank crews didn't typically latch/lock their hatches to prevent grenades being simply being dropped in by daring enemy infantry (like in SPR)? Yes; tank hatches usually had latches and the like to prevent them from simply being popped open from the outside against the crew's will. That said, even the best tanks are not without weak points and if a tank crew actually becomes so unaware of the situation outside the hull that enemy infantry can climb about the tank with impunity (and there's no nearby friendlies to "hose them off"), there are any number of spots where a well-placed grenade or molotov will cause serious damage. And would the crew of tank that had been mobility-killed but wasn't on fire bail out more or less immediately, especially knowing that there were enemy infantry crawling all over the tank (again, like in SPR)?Totally situation dependent. But in general, an immobilized tank is a bullet magnet, and sooner or later something is probably going to make it through the armor. So there is certainly an incentive to leave and go elsewhere. A crew inside an M-killed tank surrounded by enemy infantry with no immediate hope of rescue should probably have a high chance of surrendering. But a crew that knows there is also friendly infantry nearby might stay in the vehicle in the hopes that the friendlies can secure the area and they can bail more safely, and/or assist with recovery of the damaged tank. These kinds of context-sensitive decisions will be a tricky thing for BFC to get right in the game. Edit to add: Type of AFV matters, too. A crew in an immobilized Tiger with a working turret and nahvertidigungswaffe would probably be more confident of their ability to hold off approaching enemy infantry until rescue than, say, the crew of an immobilized Hetzer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vark Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Man on the right: "I told you not to open the box before we were ready, but oh no! You just had to have a peek inside and now we've lost one of the idler wheels, typical, bloody typical!" Man on left: We could always turn it into a diorama showing a KO'd Russian tank in a Finnish forest, then we wouldn't need the idler wheel" Man on the right: Hmm, not sure about this but it will have to do, shame I was looking forward to building it Man in the middle: Does it mean I can wear my jodhpurs, if it does I'm in" The trouble with locking hatches was it meant another couple of precious seconds wasted before getting out, remember you are talking about seconds to bail. A veteran tanker once summed it up, if you have to waste time thinking about gettting out it's too late! As Steve wrote, whisps of smoke in the fighting compartment did not start a debate about how it got there! Most crews bailed and if it was harmless would climb back in. Sure, they often attracted small arms fire but the chance of being hit was infinitely smaller than than being burned alive. Again an anecdotal story but one that proves the point. A Sherman crew bail because they think they have been hit, they spend most of the engagement dodging bullets and trying to work out who should go back into the tank and see what was actually wrong. At no point, according to the author, did they feel the slightest shame at their actions, it was just instinct that had taken over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stikkypixie Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 So tank crews didn't typically latch/lock their hatches to prevent grenades being simply being dropped in by daring enemy infantry (like in SPR)? And would the crew of tank that had been mobility-killed but wasn't on fire bail out more or less immediately, especially knowing that there were enemy infantry crawling all over the tank (again, like in SPR)? I remember reading on the battlefield.ru website that near the end of the war, in some cases the hatches were left unlocked after a couple of tanks got hit with Panzerfausts, leaving the crew incapacitated in a burning tank, and the friendly infantry couldn't do anything to help them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vark Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 A Churchill tank was hit by a Panzefaust rocket and because the hatches were dropped, but not locked, the tank survived as the blast could vent out of them. The tank then went on to machine gun the offending soldier. I do think it is situation dependent, but remember, the tanks commander invariably had his head out conning the tank, as fully buttoning would amount to a death wish in close terrain, it's one of the reasons they suffered such a disproportionate number of fatal head injuries. So if the enemy infantry wanted to they could still kill the commander and post a grenade inside, before the crew realised what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sand digger Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 No, but my guys believed it at least worth trying Yes, but was there good reason for them to believe that hmmmm? Or are you bound by the BF Secrets Act to say nothing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Yes, but was there good reason for them to believe that hmmmm? At the most basic, what we're dealing with here is an algorithm. It accepts inputs and produces an output. In this case, the output produced was throwing a grenade at a tank. I don't think it would have done that just for giggles. I've no reason to think it was particularly likely to produce a successful outcome, but I've no reason to think the chance was zero either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undead reindeer cavalry Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 man in the middle: "i told you to use 'mahogany brown' instead of 'dark shadow' on the turret interior! son, i am disappoint." man on the right: "WTF?!? he used the BR-350A color tones on the BR-350B shells??? i think we need to seriously reconsider his club membership." about this T-34 and its demise, if someone is interested: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=174027 apologies for the off-topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 "Come out with your hands up!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 "If you hold it up to your ear you can hear the ocean." Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gryphonne Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 This may be a tad morbid. But when I see pictures like this, I always wonder what happens to the crew if they are still inside. And how can these guys look inside the turret? I mean, doesn't the crew get plastered all over the insides of the vehicle or do they simply vapourise in the violence of the blast? War holds quite a few horrors but I don't think I'd ever be able to look inside a knocked out vehicle like that, scared of what I might find Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanzfeld Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 The word "immolation" comes to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undead reindeer cavalry Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 This may be a tad morbid. But when I see pictures like this, I always wonder what happens to the crew if they are still inside. And how can these guys look inside the turret? I mean, doesn't the crew get plastered all over the insides of the vehicle or do they simply vapourise in the violence of the blast? just a flesh wound? considering what happens to the 30+ ton tank around you, i'd say you have a 60% chance of getting wounded. a concussion is a possibility if you hit your head into something when the explosions start rocking. of course an experienced crew would know to hold tight to their seats and by so doing escape serious injury. and if you analyse the dynamics of the situation carefully you will realize that wearing any kind of helmet would probably prevent a concussion altogether. BTW in the thread i linked it's said that the tank commander escaped, but later got a stone thrown at him. luckily the stone didn't hit him but it appears to have spooked him. it must have been an eventful day for that tank commander. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 URC's sense of humor is a bit odd. Don't let that bother you, it's just that he hasn't seen the sun for the last two months. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vark Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Did you not read Sven Hassel? "We watched in growing horror as the T-34 was wracked by a series of massive blasts which transformed the tank into a steel volcano, belching out chunks of machinery and the shattered bodies of its crew, with each fiery spasm". Or more likely, the crew, or whats left of them, leg it before the tank burns and then explodes. In Ellis' Sharp End, there is a horrific account of a KO'd Sherman, at the Salerno beach head. The writer is puzzled by an irradescent shape beneath the Sherman, as he gets closer the shape takes wing, for it was a carpet of flies! Why a carpet of flies? Because they had been feeding on the pools of fat that had leaked through the burnt hull, all that was left of the immolated crew. And in the same book, a photo of two British soldiers gingerly lifting out the shattered and mummified body of a trapped German tanker. Imagine the state of the crew in this tank! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gpig Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 I was reading an account in Donald Grave's book "The South Albetas." During fighting around Bergen Op Zoom (Holland), a dazed trooper was retreating on foot after having his tank shot out from under him. He saw another tank with what looked like a driver struggling to escape from a front hatch. Once he got closer he realized it was internal munitions still cooking off inside, jostling the hatch. The driver long since dead. I can't even imagine some of the horrors these guys would have to face. The fear of ending up in the same boat. And going through it for a year solid (or longer for most). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sand digger Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 So, how would this soldier have fared at BF's version of Normandy? http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/digger-who-took-out-taliban-machine-gun-nests-to-receive-the-victoria-cross/story-e6frf7l6-1225991961201 Cliffs: SAS soldier charges multiple machine gun nests, routs Taliban single handedly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Sand_digger, Have you been reading the AAR? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sand digger Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Yes I have Jon S, something I missed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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