JonS Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 The scout team I had hiding behind the wall? They pretty much destroyed a platoon attack singlehandedly. There are also examples of teams so shaken by their earlier experiences that they'll cower at pretty much anything. Then there are the examples of being able to move in what in earlier versions of CM would have been suicidal terrain. Taken together those examples mean that the Afghanistan escapade can plausbly be re-created in CMBN. Maybe not exactly the same, and probably not often, but it's certainly plausible that it can happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sand digger Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Yes I saw that, nothing beats the feel of the game which only the players can experience though no matter how well reported. Besides, we have to keep those involved in game development on their toes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisND Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Reminds me of a CMSF battle I had where a US infantry was completely over-run in their trenches. The Lt. was the sole survivor, fighting on for fifteen minutes at point blank range, disabling a BMP, and calling in air support on his own position. It can happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AslakH Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 When we're talking about horrific tank crew deaths, I remember reading in a book called "De som falt" (those that fell), in which all the Norwegian KIA voulenteers (SS, Heer, KM, etc) are listed. Around grenaderhöhe, a junior officer accompanied by some estonian SS soldiers went to inspect a T-34 which was still "intact". They placed their wounded next to the tank and opened the hatches. The Norwegian then grabbed the tank commander by his arms and pulled him out, only to find he had no lower body. At all. It was burnt off. Then the estonian guy fired up the engine, and due to the damage inside, the driving levers got stuck and spun over the wounded soldiers, turning them into mush. The Norseman blew his brains out shortly after the war. I've read many memoirs from the Norwegian voulenteers, and it seems situations like that weren't all that uncommon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mord Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 The Norwegian then grabbed the tank commander by his arms and pulled him out, only to find he had no lower body. At all. It was burnt off. Then the estonian guy fired up the engine, and due to the damage inside, the driving levers got stuck and spun over the wounded soldiers, turning them into mush. The Norseman blew his brains out shortly after the war. That sounds like a Scandinavian "romantic comedy"... Mord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 That sounds like a Scandinavian "romantic comedy"... You've been watching way too much Bergman, Mord. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chops Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 You've been watching way too much Bergman, Mord. Michael Hey, at least he is doing something constructive, rather than rumaging through those dumpsters near his bunker, and scarfing down rotten chinese food. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mord Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Actually I have a portable DVD player...so, I can do all three...it's like the drive-in but with extra Botulism. Mord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vark Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 I've posted before about the lack of a hero option, it should be very rare, but these actions changed the outcome of battles, fought at the scale of CM. Speaking of tank traumas; 12th SS attacking in Normandy, an AT shell shell decapitates the commander, whose corpse, neck spraying arterial blood, collapsed back into the tank. Confronted with this hideous gory fountain the gunner bails, loader freezes and the driver changes into reverse gear so rapidly he breaks the transmission. Or the Panther commander bending down to pick up a dropped map, just as the main gun goes off! The recoiling breach caused an injury so severe amputation was the only feasible situation. As for the tank crushing, a NATO soldier, acting as an exercise referee was called to an incident where a tank had driven over a sleeping crew because they were not on the right side of the tank (all crews were told to sleep on one particular side of their vehicle). He said it was horrific, but at least they would have known nothing about it! I wonder if perhaps the next generation of CM would have a random events generator to represent these events. Sand Digger, if he was a tall bloke chances were he'd be targeted by a sniper, as he stood out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
futon river crossing Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Yes the game's broken without a "Hero" button Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 ...it's like the drive-in but with extra Botulism. More botulism than the drive-in? Really? You must have some pretty classy drive-ins in your area. In the ones around here you can get all the botulism you want with extra salmonella and e. Coli at only a nominal extra charge. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 I've posted before about the lack of a hero option, it should be very rare, but these actions changed the outcome of battles, fought at the scale of CM. Would make a nice bit of chrome, but I think for the moment BFC is steering wide of items that would only apply rarely. Maybe someday... Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanzfeld Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Remember "beserk" in Close Combat series? Loved that rare event. Usually ended in a death for the "beserker" but rare times he became a real hero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kulik Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Every action involving humans should involve a variable. Like in latest part of JonS DAR. He came up with a decent plan of disposing of enemy's sherman. He managed to bring his badly beaten men with a panzerfaust close to its flank. They morale was so bad, that they didn't dare to attack even if they were in a great position. Perfectly fine and believable if you ask me but that shouldn't mean that someone else wouldn't take the shot even in such bad shape. Having hard coded that unit with such low morale in such position always wouldn't shoot is bad IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Not sure a specific "hero" code is really needed. What we have now seems to work just fine to me. It's rare (as it should be), but I have had units and even individual soldiers do remarkably heroic things in both CMx1 and CMx2. In CMx1, one of my favorite gaming moments was when my Russian tank hunter team ran across open ground under fire and successfully took out a Tiger with only a molotov. This was at a very critical point in the battle and I was out of other AT assets. Not long ago while playing CMSF in a Red v. Red fight, I had a small infantry unit inside a building (3-4 guys; don't remember the specific unit type) withstand a main gun round and MG fire from a tank, return fire with an RPG and take out the tank, and then hold the building against multiple assaults by enemy infantry. There was only one of them left by the end of the fight, but he was still there, holding the building against all comers. So it happens, and IME, it happens just often enough to be realistic and exciting. Players clamor for "heros" from their own units. But I also see a lot of whining here on the forums when an enemy unit somehow withstands massive amounts of fire that "should have" taken it out of the fight, and then enemy unit somehow holds it together and then does something heroic like taking out a player's tank er whatever. It cuts both ways. If you want heroes, you need to accept it when the enemy opens up a can of hero whup-ass on you. Cheers, YD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mord Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 I agree with YD...not to mention this is only one battle...THE only battle any of us have had access to. Trying to judge what can or can't happen over thousands of games and situations is pretty premature. Mord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calibration Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 The random number generator should by definition generate "heroes". I've seen plenty of them in CMx1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Also, re heroes, at some (very distant I know) time in the future it would be great to be able to "promote/award medal" to such a hero in a campaign. But, that would require some way of identifying him. Maybe an in-game button which allows one to select a unit and either make a note to oneself re his accomplishment, or better still, choose from a selection of award criteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisND Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Every action involving humans should involve a variable. Like in latest part of JonS DAR. He came up with a decent plan of disposing of enemy's sherman. He managed to bring his badly beaten men with a panzerfaust close to its flank. They morale was so bad, that they didn't dare to attack even if they were in a great position. Perfectly fine and believable if you ask me but that shouldn't mean that someone else wouldn't take the shot even in such bad shape. Having hard coded that unit with such low morale in such position always wouldn't shoot is bad IMO. I'd be careful working up a conclusion based on a sample size of one situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 I'd be careful working up a conclusion based on a sample size of one situation. Indeed. I've seen and written about been both heros and cowards in this battle with Elvis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnersman Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Remember "beserk" in Close Combat series? Loved that rare event. Usually ended in a death for the "beserker" but rare times he became a real hero. You beat me to it. This game came to my mind on the subject of "heros". I see unbelievable events all the time in CMSF. Close Combat is a great example of this too. The difference is the soldiers in CC would act on their own to perform their acts of bravery. In fact there was an option that allowed for troops to act on initiative. But not in CMSF. You, the player, would have to ORDER the soldier to act in order for a display of bravery. Even then that act may be up for interpretation. Other than that, in CMSF, the only way the soldier acts on his own is when he cowers or is routed, or in the case of bravery, stands his ground under heavy fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kulik Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 I'd be careful working up a conclusion based on a sample size of one situation. I'm not making any conclusions, nor do i talk about any "hero code", im just talking about individuality. And how much immersion adds the fact that soldiers aren't robots and can act differently under same circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stikkypixie Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 I'm not making any conclusions, nor do i talk about any "hero code", im just talking about individuality. And how much immersion adds the fact that soldiers aren't robots and can act differently under same circumstances. There is already inherent randomness in the code, what else needs to be added in your opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan/california Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Its not just that there is inherent randomness, there is so much inherent complexity it results in the appearance of randomness. Which is much more in line with how the real world works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisND Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 I'm not making any conclusions, nor do i talk about any "hero code", im just talking about individuality. And how much immersion adds the fact that soldiers aren't robots and can act differently under same circumstances. As Stikkypixie said, there already is some randomness. It's not at all unusual to see most of a squad cowering in their corners while one guy continues to engage the enemy. And conversely it is not unusual to see a few guys in the squad who are more prone to hiding in combat. However, as a general rule, the troops will act according to their environment and their experience / motivation settings. It would be a really frustrating game if they didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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