Vehicle Tank Questions

[Field Marshal Blücher]

We have four states for a soldier:

1. A-OK (Green)

2. Lightly Wounded (Yellow)

3. Seriously Wounded (Redbrown)

4. Dead (Red)

Yep Steve, as Mord pointed out, 3 and 4 should be reversed.

[YankeeDog]

Oh, I want so bad the momentum KOed tank thing. Even expand it a little compared to CMx1. Imagine hiting the driver and the vehicle rolling uncontrolled down the hill. That will require some "engine off" new physics though but I think its a nice touch probably worth the time to implement it.

Tank grogs are welcome to show me wrong, but based on my experience with other heavy tracked vehicles (construction equipment), I really don't think this would happen most of the time. To the best of my knowledge, WWII tanks had manual transmissions, which directly link the drive wheels to the engine as long as the vehicle is in gear. And there's a lot of inherent resistance in a large tracked vehicle's engine and drive mechanism -- they have big, heavy engines designed for off-road travel and brute horsepower to pull all that weight around, not cruising/coasting efficiency.

So, most of the time, with the vehicle in gear, once the driver takes his feet off the gas pedal and clutch, the vehicle should lug down and stall (coming to a full stop) pretty quickly. A tank moving at full speed continuing to roll a few tens of feet after a catastrophic hit is realistic; laws of physics dictate that several dozen tons of steel moving at 20+ mph won't just stop instantly unless it hits something else very large and heavy. But I think a roll of more than a few vehicle lengths would be rare. This would probably be true even for a vehicle pointed down on a moderate slope -- my SWAG is that 95% of the time, the resistance provided by the dead engine would be more than enough to stop the tank in a fairly short distance.

Nevertheless, I'm sure a KO'd tank rolling a significant distance *could* happen, and given the sheer number of tanks that fought in WWII, I'm sure it did happen sometimes. There's that scene in Band of Brothers where a KO'd Sherman rolls on slowly for quite a distance, for one (which, AIUI is based on an authentic account). Obviously, at some angle an incline will be steep enough that a tank will roll downhill whether it is in gear or not. And if the engine is disengaged from the drivetrain (force of hit somehow throws the transmission into neutral, or maybe the dead driver's foot pushes the clutch or accelerator down), then the tank will roll much more easily.

But given the sheer number of other, basic features that apparently didn't make the "first cut" for CM:BfN, and are on the "short list" for future inclusion (flamethrowers & fire f/x, graphical representation of casualties inside vehicles, tcp/ip WeGo, etc.), I suspect runaway tanks are a long way off, if they ever make it in.

Cheers,

YD

[panzermartin]

What about when the engine goes off?..I remember when I was in the army, a terrible accident happened when a BMP lost it's brakes and crashed into a building killing officers inside. Apparently the BMP lost the engine and the braking system would not engage because of that. In some cases, losing the engine from a hit might mean that the vehicle cannot stop.

[YankeeDog]

Pls. see my previous comments above -- with a manual transmission, when the engine stops running, as long as the drivetrain linkage is intact and connected (i.e., the transmission is not in neutral and the clutch is not down), the engine effectively becomes a brake and will stop the vehicle in a fairly short distance.

I don't know much about the transmission and drivetrain of the BMP series, so I can't speak to what happened in the accident you mention.

[vincere]

I thought redbrown meant dead?

LOL I was probably the guy that did 99% of that mentioning over the 4 years.

Mord.

Mord and others, you guys should so get the casualty mod. Skull and Cross Bones for dead, so there's no mistake. Looks better too.

It's crossed my mind everytime I've had serious casualties from one of my vehicles hit, but I never posted about it.

[Lanzfeld]

I am telling you that just last night my M1 knocked out a full speed BMP-1A and it rooled a short while before it came to a stop.

[gibsonm]

Apparently the BMP lost the engine and the braking system would not engage because of that. In some cases, losing the engine from a hit might mean that the vehicle cannot stop.

Only if you are in some Soviet sh*tbox!

Most AFVs have a totally seperate brake / Transmission type setup that isn't engine dependent.

Second World War vehicles (and by and large it still applies) tended to use brakes on either track so to slow down you applied the break (usually in the form of a steering lever) equally to both tracks, to turn left you apply the left brake and the left track slows relative to the right and the vehicle turns.

"Neutral" turns which allow the vehicle to turn it its own length are a relatively new (i.e. post Second World War) feature.

Almost every vehicle I've been on to date (M113A1, ASLAV, Leo1, M1, CVRT Scimitar, Leo 2, Warrior and CR2)does not roll a significant distance after you take you foot off the accelerator (with the possible exception of the Scimitar with the old Jaguar powerplant that was basically a sports car on tracks).

As mentioned the mass of the vehicle tends to require you to rev the engine a fair bit to overcome the initial resistance and unless you keep the revs up it will stop again. It is even more pronounced when travelling cross country (i.e. off a nice paved or concrete surface).

If you are going flat out down a road (i.e. some sort of totally non tactical road move and exceeding the convoy speed limit because its unsafe) then yes it would roll for some distance (say less than 50m, but is that defined as "significant"? - to me no.) but those speeds shouldn't be reached in the game.

[Michael Emrys]

Pls. see my previous comments above -- with a manual transmission, when the engine stops running, as long as the drivetrain linkage is intact and connected (i.e., the transmission is not in neutral and the clutch is not down), the engine effectively becomes a brake and will stop the vehicle in a fairly short distance.

Two thoughts occur to me although I have never driven a tank nor seen what one did after getting hit. One is that the engine does not automatically stall out when the driver stops pressing on the accelerator. It idles. Which means that it would not serve as an absolute brake. The terrain might well though. The second thought is that the Sherman, for one, had a hydromatic transmission, which means unless I am mistaken a fluid coupling. I don't know for a fact whether that means that the tank would continue to roll with the engine off and in gear, but it does seem to me to introduce some uncertainty. In any event, I expect that on flat ground the total of friction losses in all the drive components would mean that it wouldn't roll very far, I wouldn't think. And if the hit destroyed the engine or disabled the drive train, it might come to a stop very quickly indeed.

Bottom line, this is liable to be a complicated issue not at all easy to model in all its peculiarities and maybe not all that relevant to gameplay.

Michael

[gibsonm]

Two thoughts occur to me although I have never driven a tank nor seen what one did after getting hit. One is that the engine does not automatically stall out when the driver stops pressing on the accelerator. It idles. Which means that it would not serve as an absolute brake. The terrain might well though.

Michael

Sure but its not providing the power to make it move either.

If you park your car on a flat piece of ground, take the brake off, take it out of gear and push it it will move.

Stop pushing it and it will stop.

With a 40T tank the rolling resistance is such that you need lots of power to make it move and lots of power to keep it moving (Track doesn't have "low rolling resistance / friction" as a design feature hence why the Leo 2 a 62T vehicle has a 1500 HP powerplant).

Once the power goes away (or drops to idle) the thing will stop in short order.

[gibsonm]

Bottom line, this is liable to be a complicated issue not at all easy to model in all its peculiarities and maybe not all that relevant to gameplay.

Michael

Absolutely!

[Steiner14]

Are tiny turret heights (i.e. PzIV) reflected in adequate low hit probabilities when the tanks are hull down?

[Animal_Mother]

There is definitely bogging in CM:SF!

As long as you get to the bogged vehicle quickly and keep changing the move order directions and forward to reverse etc... it usually gets the vehicle out.

Whereas if you leave it, it stays bogged for good as ive found out on numerous occasions.

I've never played SF, but is this really the way getting a vehicle unbogged works? By changing the move order over & over? I would think that the vehicle's driver (or AI thereof) would be able to figure out that being bogged is undesirable and get the vehicle out if he (it) could. What you're describing sounds a little silly to me--imagine the bogged vehicle's commander on the radio to his HQ, "OK, we're stuck in the mud, should we try to get it out?" Anyway if it did work this way it would be an AI flaw IMO.

[Lanzfeld]

I think this is not accurate. When a vehicle bogs....just leave it alone. It will either unbog or get immobilized by itself. Nothing you do will influence this as far as I can tell.

[Mord]

In CMX1 you drove the tank straight (either backward or forward) to get it unbogged. Seeing I have never seen bogging in CMX2 is there a message that states the vehicle is bogged or does it say immobilized? I've seen immobilized quite a few times but always figured it was from damage.

As for the rest of the "rolling on after being knocked out" part of the discussion...there's more than just tanks in the game.

Mord.

P.S. Lanzfeld I am gonna give the BMP a test to see how far it rolls.

[Lanzfeld]

P.S. Lanzfeld I am gonna give the BMP a test to see how far it rolls.

It was going full boar when I hit it and it rolled maybe 2 to 3 hull lengths. I think tracked vehicles slow very rapidly IRL so this seems accurate to me. <Shrugs>

[panzermartin]

I think this has to do with modern munitions. Almost everything hit in CMSF blows up to pieces.

Not much left to roll aftwrwards I really miss the "hraps" and "dangs" from CMx1 penetrations.

[Lanzfeld]

Nawwwww....

Physics are physics. A BMP-1 in motion tends to stay in motion....

Doesnt really matter how it was knocked out. If its doing 30 KPH it will continue to do so...

[Lt Belenko]

In the Band of Brothers series, that burning Sherman chased Bull Randleman down the ditch for a good way, but the engine was running.

Presume the dead driver was still on the controls?

[SlowMotion]

What about the effect of losing track from one side while the engine is running and tank moving? Will the tank turn at all before stopping?

[Mord]

Just did some quick tests on the rolling knock out...wheeled, light track and tank. First two pics are of vehicles being whacked by an SPG recoilless...third is an Abrams being wailed by a T90. Circle is where they were hit and then you can see how far they rolled to a stop. All were going at full speed. So if nothing has changed I'll be happy if it stays like this in Normandy...veering off a straight line would be cool though...Funny, I never noticed this before...probably 'cause I don't usually speed my vehicles around if I think they will be shot at.

I've never played SF, but is this really the way getting a vehicle unbogged works? By changing the move order over & over? I would think that the vehicle's driver (or AI thereof) would be able to figure out that being bogged is undesirable and get the vehicle out if he (it) could. What you're describing sounds a little silly to me--

Fear not...I just had a Spartan and a LMTV get bogged in mud...LOL first time I've seen this since I've been playing...anyhow, without any orders from me the drivers spun in forward, then reverse and so forth until they unbogged themselves...AND the suppression box read "bogged" so that answers that for me.

The only thing I still haven't seen is any indication of a crew being shocked. I've seen Cautious, Nervous, Panicked and what not in the leadership info area...the suppression box triangle thingy has only said, Pinned, Bogged and Knocked Out.

Mord.

[Dietrich]

I suspect "When a vehicle in motion takes a hit which knocks out the driver or the engine (though not a mobility kill), does it keep on rolling or not?" is a question because some people want (perhaps without realizing it) to see a vehicle take a hit and keep on rolling until it crashes into something. *shrug*

The only thing I still haven't seen is any indication of a crew being shocked. I've seen Cautious, Nervous, Panicked and what not in the leadership info area...the suppression box triangle thingy has only said, Pinned, Bogged and Knocked Out.

I can't claim to have noticed it especially before, but since v1.30 when an armored vehicle (whether MBT or AFV or what have you) takes a definite damaging (but not knock-out) hit, the suppression indicator instantly goes up to full, and after a little while it goes back down. (I reckon it doesn't say "Pinned" 'cause they're in a fully enclosed vehicle.)

And can the suspension squishyness of vehicles (especially heavy ones like tanks) be toned down? I, for one, am getting kinda tired of my MBTs wobbling back and forth on their tracks as they fire their cannon or as they negotiate difficult terrain. It makes them look rather lighter than they actually are. That said, I think it's one of the many cool little things that makes CMx2 as great as it is when you move the camera in close to a Bradley and watch it move ever so slightly as it fires its Bushmaster; but I don't know whether or not the Bradley itself wouldn't stay steady as a rock during firing.

[Mord]

But shocked is supposed to happen (at least it did in CMX1) when one of the crew got wasted...all the guys would be frozen for about a turn from having seen their buddy paint the inside of the Tank/AFV...and there was the little indicator saying "shocked". If the suppression thingy put that little word in there that would help...I've never seen a crew freeze during a fight in CMSF...if they stop it's because they are either missing a key guy (like a gunner) or they bail.

Mord.

[Dietrich]

Well, Mord ol' pal, keep yer TCs unbuttoned for a while, and when one of 'em gets sniped or gets his skull ripped open by an unserendipitous arty hit nearby, note whether or not the tank's icon goes semi-transparent (which indicates that the pixelcrewmen are in effect "shocked" and are thus incapable of receiving orders). However, if you're referring to a situation where a vehicle crew is "shocked" but hasn't suffered a casualty... well, I don't know what to tell ya.

[Mord]

Well, Mord ol' pal, keep yer TCs unbuttoned for a while, and when one of 'em gets sniped or gets his skull ripped open by an unserendipitous arty hit nearby, note whether or not the tank's icon goes semi-transparent (which indicates that the pixelcrewmen are in effect "shocked" and are thus incapable of receiving orders). However, if you're referring to a situation where a vehicle crew is "shocked" but hasn't suffered a casualty... well, I don't know what to tell ya.

No...I am talking about what you just described with the TC.

EDITED: So a transparent icon equals shocked? LOL wtf? By transparent you mean transparent right? And not a blinking icon? Is that an addition to the manual or in the original 1.00 manual?

Mord.

[Dietrich]

So a transparent icon equals shocked? LOL wtf? By transparent you mean transparent right? And not a blinking icon? Is that an addition to the manual or in the original 1.00 manual?

I said "semi-transparent"; cf.

Version 1.30 feature list

o Floating icons for units that are not capable of receiving commands (e.g. panicked, destroyed) are partly faded.

I interpret that as equivalent to "shocked".

Also, you may want to try such a test with "typical" Syrian tank crews (e.g., Green, -1 Leadership and Morale), to see if they go all Longbridge when they take a solid hit or lose a guy.