Vehicle Tank Questions

[Mord]

1.) How will armor be modeled in CMBN? Will we have one thickness value for each side; Front, Back, Left, Right, Top, Bottom? Or will these areas be broken down, Front Left, Front Right, Front Middle or something similar?

2.) Are casualties in the cabs of trucks and the back of halftracks gonna disappear when they are hit or can they at least be thrown on the ground this time around so we know there were KIAs WIAs taken...it always kinda irked me in CMSF when you dust a pickup or what not and the guys just vanish. No big deal with inner crews 'cause we'd never see them...but the guys that are exposed...well you never quite know what happened to them if you aren't taking notes...be nice to have them littering the area where the vehicle was hit so you get an idea as to what actually happened.

3.) Haven't seen anything about passengers riding on tanks...is this in?

4.) Will we have bogging? I don't think I've ever noticed it in CMSF.

5.) In CMX1 when a vehicle was high tailing it and knocked out it it always rolled on a ways before stopping...is this back? In CMSF it seems vehicles stop soon as they get nailed... there's no forward momentum. Not a big deal but was one of those really cool touches I miss.

6.) Will we be able to push knocked out vehicles like in CMX1 or are we gonna be able to drive through them?...Seems this would be an important factor with the inclusion of bridges this time around...a heavy tank knocked out on a bridge could play hell for any lighter vehicles that are coming up behind it who don't have the ass to move it out of the way.

7.) Detailed Armor Hits? Be nice to see them again...

8.) Crew being shocked and the like?

Thanks.

Mord.

[Lethaface]

Regarding 1), I would think that the full 3D model is used to calculate effects of rounds against armor. So, it should be different from point to point even on the same 'side'.

[Volltreffer]

1.)

4.) Will we have bogging? I don't think I've ever noticed it in CMSF.

Mord.

There is definitely bogging in CM:SF!

As long as you get to the bogged vehicle quickly and keep changing the move order directions and forward to reverse etc... it usually gets the vehicle out.

Whereas if you leave it, it stays bogged for good as ive found out on numerous occasions.

[sirjahn]

Is CM:BN going to add the vehicles of the 100th Panzer Abteilung to the game? Preliminary listing of vehicles does not have Panzer IIIs, Hotchkiss or Renault tanks which were part of the 100th.

[Mord]

There is definitely bogging in CM:SF!

I probably never noticed it 'cause I played a lot of infantry heavy, Stryker, Lav type battles.

Mord.

[Mord]

Is CM:BN going to add the vehicles of the 100th Panzer Abteilung to the game? Preliminary listing of vehicles does not have Panzer IIIs, Hotchkiss or Renault tanks which were part of the 100th.

Check out the discussion here...it'll give you an idea about where the game is heading with vehicles that aren't included in the first release.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=94339

Mord.

[gibsonm]

4. and 8. are already included in CM:SF.

[Jonny(FGM)]

Is there a CMx1 style shocked though? IE a crew member goes down you can issue movement orders but not combat orders?

I havn't noticed anything like this but of course i could be wrong, all i notice is a crew member goes down and the whole tank panics and refuses to take any orders at all

I'm not bothered either way tbh it'd just be cool to know

[Battlefront.com]

1.) How will armor be modeled in CMBN? Will we have one thickness value for each side; Front, Back, Left, Right, Top, Bottom? Or will these areas be broken down, Front Left, Front Right, Front Middle or something similar?

Same as CM:SF... more detailed than CMx1. Armor thickness already is based on specific component and the ballistics based on precise intersection with a specific component.

2.) Are casualties in the cabs of trucks and the back of halftracks gonna disappear when they are hit or can they at least be thrown on the ground this time around so we know there were KIAs WIAs taken.

Currently, yes. It irks me too so I'm hoping we can do something about it now that we have many more open topped vehicles than we had in CM:SF.

3.) Haven't seen anything about passengers riding on tanks...is this in?

Nope. And let the chorus of "I'm not buying your stupid game until I can put infantry on tanks" begin. Proved to be one too many features for this first release. We don't view this as being particularly tactically important for this area so we felt it could be skipped. Missed? You bet, but we can live without it for now.

4.) Will we have bogging? I don't think I've ever noticed it in CMSF.

Already in CM:SF. But with dry conditions most of the time bogging isn't such a risk in CM:SF as it is in Normandy.

5.) In CMX1 when a vehicle was high tailing it and knocked out it it always rolled on a ways before stopping...is this back? In CMSF it seems vehicles stop soon as they get nailed... there's no forward momentum. Not a big deal but was one of those really cool touches I miss.

Nothing has been changed yet.

6.) Will we be able to push knocked out vehicles like in CMX1 or are we gonna be able to drive through them?

Not yet, but it's something we hope to get in soon.

7.) Detailed Armor Hits? Be nice to see them again...

Not slated for the near future.

8.) Crew being shocked and the like?

Already exists in CM:SF, therefore it is already in CM:BN

Steve

[vincere]

Currently, yes. It irks me too so I'm hoping we can do something about it now that we have many more open topped vehicles than we had in CM:SF.

Steve

Is buddy aid and casevac something you'll look at when you look at more realistc settings for prisoners? I found crew casualties in CMSF a slight niggle that nobody was ever pulled clear.

Glass is half full by the way, Normandy looks like it's shaping up to be a cracker.

[Dietrich]

4.) Will we have bogging? I don't think I've ever noticed it in CMSF.

I probably never noticed it 'cause I played a lot of infantry heavy, Stryker, Lav type battles.

<sarcasm> I love it when, not an Abrams or a Marder, but a mere Humvee or Fennek becomes bogged, then immobilized just because it wasn't on a paved, even though it's in a city and the conditions are "very dry". </sarcasm>

With that in mind, I fully expect to lose jeeps and Kübelwagens as much to bogging as to enemy fire. =P

[Mord]

Thanks for all the answers Steve.

I won't be one of the ones complaining about the lack of tank riders...it'd be nice but I am so used to CMSF and it's lack there of, I can deal.

#2 is probably one of the things I want and hope for most, so that is heartening.

5 and 6 gives me hope too!

Bummer about detailed armor hits but I guess we do kinda have that now with being able to check systems and damage...I mostly liked knowing when there was internal armor flaking...made me cringe and happy all at once.

As for #8...is there an actual message anywhere in the UI? I've never noticed it. I mean like where we see that one guy is cowering, another guy hiding...so on? Or is it all done underneath the hood?

Mord.

[gibsonm]

As for #8...is there an actual message anywhere in the UI? I've never noticed it. I mean like where we see that one guy is cowering, another guy hiding...so on? Or is it all done underneath the hood?

Mord.

Well yes its in the UI (look on the information panel at the bottom, the inverted triangle which shows if they are pinned, etc.).

I mean like where we see that one guy is cowering, another guy hiding...so on? Or is it all done underneath the hood?

Mord.

No that's not shown but as you said, its in the UI, not the graphics.

[Mord]

Ah yeah, I didn't type that clearly...I meant the little messages that state what each man is doing, like Cowering, Hiding etc...

So it's the suppression box then...I'll have to fire up a test and keep an eye on it to see what states it has for vehicles...I am assuming it'll probably b the same as it would for infantry.

Thanks again.

Mord.

[Michael Emrys]

I found crew casualties in CMSF a slight niggle that nobody was ever pulled clear.

Could that be because vehicle destruction in the modern era is so catastrophic that anyone wounded is considered automatically dead? Just wondering...

Michael

[gibsonm]

I’m not sure that’s right.

I’m certain I’ve seen crew members with the silly “day glow” orange / red colouring (before I got a mod to remove those, to me anyway, irritating bases).

Certainly if the vehicle just explodes (say a BRDM2 hit with a 120mm HESH round) you might not expect many to get out, but less catastrophic hits have resulted in some / most of the crew getting out and often someone is hurt.

I think Steve’s concern is more for the open topped vehicles in CM:BN and depicting the results of the casualties from say arty or maybe grenades or whatever that turns a small space filled with people into a charnel house.

I’ll have to check this tonight.

[update]: Just ran a very quick scenario.

4 x Leo 2A6s encountered 3 x T-62 (I said it was quick, not balanced).

The Leos destroyed the T-62s in the first volley.

1 x T-62 K-Kill, burning, crew didn’t evacuate, 4 x red wound markers that then quickly disappeared as they died in the flames.

1 x T-62 K-kill, non burning, crew did evacuate, 2 x red crosses, 2 x unhurt, crew of 4 crawled off.

1 x T-62 M-kill, then K-kill, crew did evacuate after first hit, 2 x red crosses, 2 x unhurt, both wounded suffered collateral damage from 2nd hit and “died” beside their vehicle, 2 bodies beside vehicle, remaining 2 ran away.

Not sure about a squad inside and APC / IFV though.

[MeatEtr]

3.) Haven't seen anything about passengers riding on tanks...is this in?

Nope. And let the chorus of "I'm not buying your stupid game until I can put infantry on tanks" begin. Proved to be one too many features for this first release. We don't view this as being particularly tactically important for this area so we felt it could be skipped. Missed? You bet, but we can live without it for now.

Steve

This is a real bummer to hear. Surprised this hasn't been asked about earlier, or maybe I missed it. Any idea how soon this will show up, first module, or maybe in a patch?

[gibsonm]

Well there was considerable internal feedback when it was discussed, but of course that couldn't be made public until Steve's announcement.

[gibsonm]

I’m not sure that’s right.

I’m certain I’ve seen crew members with the silly “day glow” orange / red colouring (before I got a mod to remove those, to me anyway, irritating bases).

Certainly if the vehicle just explodes (say a BRDM2 hit with a 120mm HESH round) you might not expect many to get out, but less catastrophic hits have resulted in some / most of the crew getting out and often someone is hurt.

I think Steve’s concern is more for the open topped vehicles in CM:BN and depicting the results of the casualties from say arty or maybe grenades or whatever that turns a small space filled with people into a charnel house.

I’ll have to check this tonight.

[update]: Just ran a very quick scenario.

4 x Leo 2A6s encountered 3 x T-62 (I said it was quick, not balanced).

The Leos destroyed the T-62s in the first volley.

1 x T-62 K-Kill, burning, crew didn’t evacuate, 4 x red wound markers that then quickly disappeared as they died in the flames.

1 x T-62 K-kill, non burning, crew did evacuate, 2 x red crosses, 2 x unhurt, crew of 4 crawled off.

1 x T-62 M-kill, then K-kill, crew did evacuate after first hit, 2 x red crosses, 2 x unhurt, both wounded suffered collateral damage from 2nd hit and “died” beside their vehicle, 2 bodies beside vehicle, remaining 2 ran away.

Not sure about a squad inside and APC / IFV though.

[update #2] Another quick and unfair scenario.

A Tp of 4 x Leo 2A6 encounter a Syrian Motor Rifle Company (10 x BTR 60 all carrying Infantry) in open country.

Carnage as you'd expect but the Infantry as they dismounted did have wounded amoung them.

The dead however staying inside the vehicle and that returns me to the point about "open topped".

At present these casualties are calculated but not depicted (there are no bodies left inside the vehicles). Not a big issue with CM:SF.

However in CM:BN an open topped halftrack that you can easily look into needs to have dead (and wounded) left behind if only half the section "bails out" after the vehicle is hit.

People will no doubt comment about "I had 10 guys in vehicle X at the start of the turn. It was hit by a panzerfaust and 6 of the Infantry got out. where are the other 4 guys?", etc.

[vincere]

gibson

My understanding is that unwounded and slight wounds wilol get out of the vehicle.

But full wounded (not dead yet, but more likely to be without buddy aid) do not get clear of the vehicle.

I think your tests must be showing lightly wounded guys getting out under their own steam.

It's a slight niggle, and way down my list let alone obvisously the important list infront of the man. But when a vehicle gets hit I always have the instinct to want to get guys over there for casevac, except when it's cooking off rounds.

Michael Emrys: as gibsons test points towards, plenty of crew survive their vehicle being KO'd.

[Lanzfeld]

I hope vehicle pushing will get in there ASAP. I dont want my knocked out jeep blocking a chokepoint that all my shermans have to go through.

MAN.....I just remembered the Alpha Battle AAR! Before we had vehicle pushing in CMBO. That exact thing happened and, if I remember correctly, one guy lost access to 6 or 7 vehicles!

Also......vehicles do continue to roll after being knocked out. I just saw it. Not a super long way but they do roll.

[Michael Emrys]

Michael Emrys: as gibsons test points towards, plenty of crew survive their vehicle being KO'd.

So I see. Glad to have that cleared up.

Michael

[Battlefront.com]

Correct about the current wounded behavior. We have four states for a soldier:

1. A-OK (Green)

2. Lightly Wounded (Yellow)

3. Seriously Wounded (Redbrown)

4. Dead (Red)

When a soldier is in a vehicle and is either seriously wounded or dead there is no 3D representation. This is not the case for a soldier who is not in a vehicle. Hence a contradictory treatment. Until now it hasn't been a big issue (hardly mentioned in 4 years) because most passenger and crew based vehicles in CM:SF were fully enclosed. Therefore, seeing the casualties in the vehicles was not easily achieved. Not so in CM:BN with so many of its vehicles being open topped *and* more prone to having casualties due to thin or non-existant armor protection.

Steve

[Mord]

I thought redbrown meant dead?

Yeah, with the CMSF vehicle casualties it was most noticeable with the Uncon pickups, taxis, and any of the open top, jeep type allied vehicles, Wolf, Jackals...etc.

LOL I was probably the guy that did 99% of that mentioning over the 4 years.

It would be an awesome feature to have in the game at some point...nothing tells the story like an area littered with a ton of unlucky dead punks...

Mord.

[panzermartin]

Oh, I want so bad the momentum KOed tank thing. Even expand it a little compared to CMx1. Imagine hiting the driver and the vehicle rolling uncontrolled down the hill. That will require some "engine off" new physics though but I think its a nice touch probably worth the time to implement it.