Does the M707 Humvee have enhanced spotting capabilities or can it just call in arty.

[stikkypixie]

..faster? I made a flat map of about 2km long. Put some enemy infantry in the open. Had some M707 at the other side, and let the spot for 30 min. Not a single contact. It didn't matter whether it was night or day. I changed the temperature to cold in case the temperature contrast would increase the thermal capabilities.

Can someone answer this definitively?

[Nidan1]

What state were the infantry in? Were they still for the entire 30 min?

Human heat signatures should be visible on thermal sights, but who knows if they are still.

[stikkypixie]

The enemy stayed put, and I will get you your turn tomorrow.

[Cpl Steiner]

Isn't that the Humvee that has to "open up" in order to use the roof-mounted optics?

[stikkypixie]

Isn't that the Humvee that has to "open up" in order to use the roof-mounted optics?

Yup unbuttoned. So I'm really curious what they're for since that other similar thread.

[dan/california]

Just out of curiosity could you put the Humvee on a small hill? Also, did you use a cover arc. I am reasonably certain that the optics have a very small field of view, especially at higher magnifications.

[MikeyD]

Yes, the M707 needs to be unbuttoned to take advantage.

I suspect M707 would do a superior job at spotting on maps that far exceed CMSF map sizes. Like 4km or something. On CM size maps they can see stuff pretty much like everyone else can see stuff. I recall there being tests awhile ago on M707 spotting and there is a difference for a stationary unbuttoned vehicle. But on standard size maps its a subtle difference. M707 wasn't meant to take part in knife-fight close combat.

[Lanzfeld]

Yes in the game the M707 does not spot any better than your troops with binocs. In short.....its broke.

[stikkypixie]

Yes, the M707 needs to be unbuttoned to take advantage.

I suspect M707 would do a superior job at spotting on maps that far exceed CMSF map sizes. Like 4km or something. On CM size maps they can see stuff pretty much like everyone else can see stuff. I recall there being tests awhile ago on M707 spotting and there is a difference for a stationary unbuttoned vehicle. But on standard size maps its a subtle difference. M707 wasn't meant to take part in knife-fight close combat.

It was 2km away, not exactly knife edge distance, don't tell me it can see stuff 4km away but not 2. The vehicles were stationary and unbuttoned. I'll put it on higher elevation with a cover arc, to see what happens. But as it is now, either it's not working properly or I do not understand what it is suppose to be better at.

[Sivodsi]

I do not understand what it is suppose to be better at.

eye candy. It is by far the prettiest hummer on the blocks, with that cute little tower standing up there. Makes you just want to hug it.

[MikeyD]

Its not so much BFC's fault that they field a Humvee varient that's useless, its more the DoD's fault.

[Lanzfeld]

But that it just it!

If BFC would give it a big spotting bonus it wouldnt be useless.

[BlackMoria]

Well, not completely useless. I use them for AT-14 bait. Run them like crazy around and draw fire. If the vehicle gets smoked, no big loss... and hopefully another spotter spots the shooter.

And yes, my comment above is somewhat sarcastic but that is the only way they spot anything.... by drawing fire.

[stikkypixie]

Its not so much BFC's fault that they field a Humvee varient that's useless, its more the DoD's fault.

Look I am not familiar with the capabilities of the M707 so that's why I'm asking. Unfortunately this answer is not very helpful.

If the main advantage of the M707 is that it can determine distance and record positions with extreme accuracy, then the game is fine.

If on the other hand it improves the spotting ability of whoever is looking through the optics, then something needs to be changed because there is no effect whatsoever.

So which one is it?

[MikeyD]

It can't be both? Sometimes when you can't spot the enemy its because they can't be spotted. That big box on the roof isn't magic, it can't view around corners and through walls.

[Erwin]

If the M707 has to be unbuttoned for the "more accurate" observation, is this true of other vehicles?

Which vehicles need to be unbuttoned and which can remain buttoned for improved spotting? (Be nice if this stuff was in the manual btw.)

[stikkypixie]

It can't be both? Sometimes when you can't spot the enemy its because they can't be spotted. That big box on the roof isn't magic, it can't view around corners and through walls.

But they were wide in the open. On flat terrain. You say it's designed for maps over 4km, then why can't it spot infantry only 2km? Or does it apply only to bigger things like vehicles? Just wondering how to best use these suckers

Ok. I just checked. Put some trucks on the map and then you really see the advantage of the M707, cool . They were spotted almost instantaneously, whereas the humvees without the optics had a harder time.

[akd]

If the M707 has to be unbuttoned for the "more accurate" observation, is this true of other vehicles?

Which vehicles need to be unbuttoned and which can remain buttoned for improved spotting? (Be nice if this stuff was in the manual btw.)

It is mostly pretty logical. The M707 sensor is not a remotely operated optic wired into the vehicle. It is its own sensor package mounted onto an Humvee just like a .50 cal, TOW etc, and like those it can, in real life, be dismounted from the vehicle and used on its own.

Most humvees (and other vehicles) gain spotting advantages when unbuttoned because it is simply easier to see when outside the vehicle, but this is doubly true if there is a sensor that cannot be operated from inside the vehicle. Off the top of my head, that would be M707 humvees, TOW humvees and Stryker recon variants. Not sure if the BMP and Marder gain any advantage over their internal optics from use of the sights on their external ATGMs by an unbuttoned commander.

[dan/california]

The combat orientated vehicles have screens for their targeting systems displayed inside the vehicle. So M1 and Bradley crews can see better when buttoned up, in SOME cases. At long range and in the dark being the two most obvious. It can be a tough call about unbuttoning in closer range daylight combat. It may even vary considerably with the exact M1 model. Their are quite a few significant differences in the commander's station equipage.

[Battlefront.com]

Certain sensors do indeed give a bonus only when the viewer is in the correct position. You can't get a spotting bonus from a Bradley's FLIR when unbuttoned, you can't get a spotting bonus from a M707 when buttoned. Being unbuttoned, however, gives a universal improvement over normal (i.e. periscopes, vision blocks, etc.) viewing from within a buttoned vehicle. Therefore...

In some cases it is better for a vehicle to be buttoned, at other times unbuttoned. Other vehicles are the opposite. Depends on what the sensors are and what you're trying to do. Spotting an RPG team 25m away in a building is probably going to be done better by an unbuttoned vehicle no matter what sensors they have, spotting an RPG team 500m away is probably not possible while unbuttoned (except in ideal circumstances). Etc.

The scout vehicles of most nations for most time periods of war are built for speed and/or maneuverability, not protection from significant enemy threats. And these days significant enemy threats are cheap weapons in the hands of a single soldier, so yeah... recon vehicles are extremely vulnerable.

The one significant exception to this is the Bradley M3 Cav Fighting Vehicle. This is probably the heaviest recon vehicle in all of CM:SF. It is the only vehicle that is really capable of "fighting for intel". There are many that do better than Humvees, Fenneks, and G-Wagons, but none that can fight better than the M3.

Steve

[Chops]

Thanks for the information Steve, however, it still does not explain why we are not seeing any spotting bonus for the M707 in the game under any circumstances.

[stikkypixie]

Thanks for the information Steve, however, it still does not explain why we are not seeing any spotting bonus for the M707 in the game under any circumstances.

I just tested and they do, especially against vehicles.

[dan/california]

I appreciate your checking in Steve, but could you give us any indication of the M707s abilities? Say relative to a M1s targeting system, in game terms. The web is absolutely mum on the specs in the absence of a .mil ID at least.

[Erwin]

AKD: Re your "It is mostly pretty logical." In CMSF MANY things are NOT logical to me I am sorry to say, that's why I asked. (And If I am confused, then lots of others are too.)

"Not sure if the BMP and Marder gain any advantage over their internal optics from use of the sights on their external ATGMs by an unbuttoned commander." Well... while I appreciate the answer, it sounds like you are as confused as I am at least re these vehicles.

What would be very much appreciated from someone who knows, would be a definitive list of which vehicles (in the game) spot better unbuttoned (and I mean with long range equipment, NOT 25m away) and vice versa, as it seems to make quite a difference. Thanks...

[Sivodsi]

I just tested and they do, especially against vehicles.

The question is, does the 707 remain unspotted whilst being able to spot? '

How much of an advantage does the 707 have over, say an Abrams, or an officer in the open with binoculars?

Can the 707 be in a hull down position while spotting with this ability, n?

This last question is the biggest one, because of the necessary 'simplification' of BFTs LOS calculations - having three levels, was it? Maybe in RL the 707 could be parked so that only the tower scans the terrain and would be virtually invisible to the enemy it spots. But in the game, such a position may be impossible.