Does the M707 Humvee have enhanced spotting capabilities or can it just call in arty.

[stikkypixie]

The question is, does the 707 remain unspotted whilst being able to spot? '

How much of an advantage does the 707 have over, say an Abrams, or an officer in the open with binoculars?

Can the 707 be in a hull down position while spotting with this ability, n?

This last question is the biggest one, because of the necessary 'simplification' of BFTs LOS calculations - having three levels, was it? Maybe in RL the 707 could be parked so that only the tower scans the terrain and would be virtually invisible to the enemy it spots. But in the game, such a position may be impossible.

Yes, I had a regular humvee parked next to it. And it couldn't see a thing. It night though and the distances was about 2km. In daylight, the advantage will be less. It would be logical that it has about the same capabilities as an M1, because they would probably put the best and latest in the tank as well. Definitely better than regular binoculars.

Don't know about hull down though.

[Lanzfeld]

At least with Normandy we can pretty much forget about all this high tech gear "not working correctly". Spotting will be spotting. Although I am sure there will be German optics threads.

[stikkypixie]

At least with Normandy we can pretty much forget about all this high tech gear "not working correctly". Spotting will be spotting. Although I am sure there will be German optics threads.

That's the thing, it IS working properly.

This is the map I used. The M707 humvees are HIDING and BUTTONED up. The humvee with the .50 cal is unbuttoned and not hiding.

10 Minutes later, still no contact:

I then button up the .50 cal humvee and unhide at 20:00 (timer time) and unbutton the M707, first contact (note the time):

And at the end of the turn:

This only works for the truck. The M707 cannot spot infantry at that distance.

[akd]

AKD: Re your "It is mostly pretty logical." In CMSF MANY things are NOT logical to me I am sorry to say, that's why I asked. (And If I am confused, then lots of others are too.)

"Not sure if the BMP and Marder gain any advantage over their internal optics from use of the sights on their external ATGMs by an unbuttoned commander." Well... while I appreciate the answer, it sounds like you are as confused as I am at least re these vehicles.

What would be very much appreciated from someone who knows, would be a definitive list of which vehicles (in the game) spot better unbuttoned (and I mean with long range equipment, NOT 25m away) and vice versa, as it seems to make quite a difference. Thanks...

As Steve pointed out, a list is impossible because it all depends on what you are trying to spot, at what range and under what conditions. I do think logic and quick look at the equipment tab will suffice, and if you run into a situation where this doesn't apply, I would test it in the editor and make a bug report if there is inconsistency.

But I think you can safely say that any enclosed vehicle without internal or remote sensors/optics will spot better unbuttoned than buttoned, i.e. humvees, hard-top landrovers, hard-top G-wagens, Fuchs, plain FV432s, trucks, etc. Vision in open air is better than viewing through a windshield/vision block, short or long-range. The list of vehicles that carry sensors but still always spot better unbuttoned is small:

M707 humvee

M1046 humvee

Stryker Recon

Stryker FSV

Wiesel TOW (although looking at this has led me to a potential bug)

Because these are the only vehicles that must be unbuttoned to use the sensors displayed on their equipment page.

It would make more sense to make a list of vehicles that spot better buttoned long-range than unbuttoned. For the majority of sensor-carrying vehicles, unbuttoning is not going to degrade long-range spotting because a crew-member will continue to operate the optics/sensors while the commander is unbuttoned. So our main interest is a list of vehicles that lose access to a sensor when the crew unbuttons, and where loss of the sensor degrades long-range spotting under all circumstances.

[Battlefront.com]

Thanks for the test Stikkypixie. Infantry should be easier to spot with the LRAS3 (mounted on the M707) than with naked eyes, but it should still be really situationally dependent. As an aside, I've been meaning to compliment the weapons/profile mod you're using. Very nice.

AKD,

You're right on the money about button/unbutton not being a factor for most vehicles with sensors. Well, unless there are crew casualties or some other unusual factor. Otherwise, off the top of my head, the short list you came up with seems to be pretty complete for vehicles which require unbuttoning to be effective.

Could there be some sort of bug floating around? Maybe some sort of variable that might need to be massaged? Maybe, but it also could be that a combo of incorrect expectations and/or keeping the vehicles buttoned might be why people think the LRAS3 isn't doing squat.

Steve

[stikkypixie]

Thanks for the test Stikkypixie. Infantry should be easier to spot with the LRAS3 (mounted on the M707) than with naked eyes, but it should still be really situationally dependent. As an aside, I've been meaning to compliment the weapons/profile mod you're using. Very nice.

Steve

The mod is Scipio's, you should talk to him. The one thing I find weird the M707, is that it is not able to spot infantry in the open during daylight (2km) away. The infantry was stationary though. It's hard to judge what to expect from the capabilities from some of these pieces of equipment.

[Erwin]

Yes, thanks AKD, that was helpful. (And thanks for the tests Stickky.)

A list of vehicles "that spot better buttoned long-range than unbuttoned" would also be very useful as a companion to the list you gave.

Maybe I am not sensitive/detail-oriented enuff to really study the equipment load-out box. Did I get this correctly: That the load-out info will sometimes change depending on whether the unit is buttoned or unbuttoned. (I note that there seems to be no change in the equipment load-out in the above example, regardless if the M707 is buttoned or unbuttoned.)

It would be nice to see any sort of increased ability appear somewhere (in the unit equipment load-out screen??) so one knew which units had additional capabilities depending on their buttoned status.

[akd]

Maybe I am not sensitive/detail-oriented enuff to really study the equipment load-out box. Did I get this correctly: That the load-out info will sometimes change depending on whether the unit is buttoned or unbuttoned. (I note that there seems to be no change in the equipment load-out in the above example, regardless if the M707 is buttoned or unbuttoned.)

It would be nice to see any sort of increased ability appear somewhere (in the unit equipment load-out screen??) so one knew which units had additional capabilities depending on their buttoned status.

It does not change but it should and, I think, easily could. When, for example, an external MG runs out of ammo, it goes from white letters to gray letters in the equipment list and will stay gray until reloaded. I don't see why the same couldn't apply to the M707 and others, with "IR Optics" grayed-out until the crew unbuttons.

[Erwin]

Yes. Considering that we can't read up on this sort of issue in the manual(s), that's the sort of intuitive display info that would help a LOT. I wasn't even aware of the issue till I read this thread.

It's a shock to realise that I may be using my recon vehicles all wrong - after 2+ years playing (shudder)! Heaven help the casual player.

(And BTW, I think this sort of thing is a "death sentence" for widespread competitive H2H play as one needs to really understand the game engine and its many, many quirks to play at a higher level - much more so than CM1.)

[tyrspawn]

In my experience the M707 is worthless and is just a liability that should be put into defilade so it doesn't lower your score when it inevitably gets killed by a dshkm or ak-47.

[vincere]

It does not change but it should and, I think, easily could. When, for example, an external MG runs out of ammo, it goes from white letters to gray letters in the equipment list and will stay gray until reloaded. I don't see why the same couldn't apply to the M707 and others, with "IR Optics" grayed-out until the crew unbuttons.

That's a good idea. If this stuff isn't going to be in the manual then needed really.

[c3k]

It does not change but it should and, I think, easily could. When, for example, an external MG runs out of ammo, it goes from white letters to gray letters in the equipment list and will stay gray until reloaded. I don't see why the same couldn't apply to the M707 and others, with "IR Optics" grayed-out until the crew unbuttons.

akd,

That's an excellent suggestion. +1 to the above post.

Ken