Snipers

[SelfLoadingRifle]

Just a couple of thoughts...

1) It irks me somewhat to see sniper pairs wearing standard infantry kit including helmet. I know from first hand experience that the standard garb for snipers is the ghillie suit with matching hat.

2) An important sniper function is mortar fire control. (At least it was in the British Army circa 1980s/90s). This does not seem to be represented in CMSF at all.

Point 1 should be relatively easy to deal with if (hopefully) one of the talented modders on this forum reads this and is inspired into creating a more authentic looking sniper.

Point 2 would require sniper pairs to be issued with a radio, and perhaps some re-coding to be carried out. Might the Battlefront.com team consider doing this, or is CMSF now a totally finished product:(

SLR:)

[Jonny(FGM)]

Wouldn't a Ghillie suit be pretty bad camouflage for the desert?

[ChrisND]

Point 1 should be relatively easy to deal with if (hopefully) one of the talented modders on this forum reads this and is inspired into creating a more authentic looking sniper.

It would be pretty cool to make ghilli suits, but it can't really be done. For one, they share the same textures as the rest of the troops. So if you gave them a ghilli skin, everyone would get it. Also, the 3D model mesh cannot be modified and a ghilli suit that has the same shape of a normal uniform would look rather silly.

[ChrisND]

Wouldn't a Ghillie suit be pretty bad camouflage for the desert?

Not at night and among underbrush. Our unit used to leave two man OPs in ghillis along the highway to catch insurgents trying to plant roadside bombs.

[Jonny(FGM)]

Aye I suppose, but then i'd imagine it would be pretty hard to code in different uniforms for different times/terrain

[ChrisND]

Aye I suppose, but then i'd imagine it would be pretty hard to code in different uniforms for different times/terrain

It's isn't something that was used often by us. More like OPs and special missions and the such. Not really worth the effort IMO.

[SelfLoadingRifle]

Wouldn't a Ghillie suit be pretty bad camouflage for the desert?

No, not at all, because (as always) the suit itself, plus the scrim used would be designed and selected to blend in with the local surroundings.

As to whether or not ghillie suits are worn in the Middle East, I will accept the verdict of those who served in that particular theatre; I didn't. It also seems from the replies that coding would be a problem. HOWEVER with my sniping hat on, I would surmise that for activities such as stalking, or anything that takes a sniper pair out on their own, full cam (ie a ghillie suit) would almost certainly be worn.

My second point is of more significance to the game. Sniper pairs (at least those in the Brit Army) should be given MFC capabilities.

SLR

[Splinty]

My experience is that snipers in the standard US Army line infantry units, such as the Stryker or Bradley companys wear pretty much the same uniforms as the rest of the troops. The Spec Ops and Ranger snipers are more likely to have specialized camo gear, they might use Ghilli suits if it was approriate terrain for it.

[stikkypixie]

No, not at all, because (as always) the suit itself, plus the scrim used would be designed and selected to blend in with the local surroundings.

As to whether or not ghillie suits are worn in the Middle East, I will accept the verdict of those who served in that particular theatre; I didn't. It also seems from the replies that coding would be a problem. HOWEVER with my sniping hat on, I would surmise that for activities such as stalking, or anything that takes a sniper pair out on their own, full cam (ie a ghillie suit) would almost certainly be worn.

My second point is of more significance to the game. Sniper pairs (at least those in the Brit Army) should be given MFC capabilities.

SLR

If you're talking about the capability of sniper teams in the game to call in artillery, this was a bug and will be fixed in the next patch.

Whether they will be better than a regular squads, is something else.

[flamingknives]

Skulking around in a Ghillie suit is probably out of the scope for CMSF. What the game tries to simulate is force-on-force engagements where the snipers are likely trying to look as much like the other soldiers as possible. Appearing different attracts enemy fire. Furthermore, while I've never tried running around in a desert (at all), doing it in a ghillie suit would seem to be the ideal shortcut to a heat stroke.

[MikeyD]

One of the stated advantages of the new U.S. sniper weapon, the M110 is that from a distance it looks like an M16. Dressing up in a flamboyant sniper costume and carrying an exotic weapon around is as much as saying "shoot me first"! Enemy snipers target officers, hvy weapons crews and other snipers in preference to line infantry. Sometime 'blending into the countryside' can mean looking like a truck driver as much as looking like a pile of grass.

[Mord]

Do snipers have any kind of stealth bonus in CMSF? Something that makes them harder to spot than normal troops? Or would that fall under experience?

Mord.

[flamingknives]

Experience and how you use them. Much of the sniper's skill is movement, use of terrain and patience. These are all in the hands of the player.

[Mord]

Yeah, I usually just find a spot for my team and then leave them alone...let them choose targets instead of me doing it....keeps them alive MUCH longer!

Mord.

[Erwin]

Agree with Mord...

There's been lot of discussion and some frustration re snipers and recon troops. You would think they would have special skills, but the game doesn't reflect this.

A sensible suggestion I read here a long time ago was that designers should make recon and sniper units at least one level more experienced than the rest of the troops in the scenario, (plus probably give em a +2 HQ).

[SelfLoadingRifle]

Experience and how you use them. Much of the sniper's skill is movement, use of terrain and patience. These are all in the hands of the player.

With the greatest respect, this is wrong. Snipers take cam and concealment to a completely different level from that of the normal grunt. In fact, they are SO well cammed up that when in position, you would pretty much have to trip over one in order to discover his position, and that is no exaggeration:eek: Their use of ground and selection of fire positions is also equally superior. Routes in and routes out will be planned meticulously using 1:1250 scale maps, and also aerial photographs. Fire positions will usually be in in-depth positions of cover, taking full advantage of shadow. Muzzle flash and smoke will be almost impossible to spot. If firing from a building, the sniper will be well back from any window, again making him very difficult to spot. Sticking the barrel of the weapon out of the window, as depicted in the game would only happen under exceptional circumstances.

The standard sniping range, at least when I was in, was 400m. At this range, successful head shots would be expected pretty much all of the time, unless of course, the wind conditions were particularly tricky. 300m is close - we had to stalk to within this range for the purposes of tests - and 200m would be considered too close for comfort. Accurate sniping with the L96 was expected out to about 800m, and harassing fire from 800 to 1200m Spotting an in-position sniper at anything under 300m (perhaps even 200) would be very, very difficult, and in my opinion some form of modifier is required to reflect this.

Two scenarios reflect the different uses of the CMSF sniper. In UK British Mettle, sniper pairs would be out on their own ahead of the FEBA, their tasks recce, FOO/MFC, and elimination of key personnel, in that order. They would have moved into position during the night, and would be fully cammed up - possibly even in hasty hides - and ready to perform their tasks by first light. They would be fully ghillie-suited up. In Joint Venture, they would be operating in close proximity with the troops. As I recall, the ranges in that scenario were much closer. The snipers would be concentrating on elimination of key personnel, certainly until the enemy got really close. I would surmise that they would probably be wearing normal uniform as depicted.

Some of you may disagree with my figures. I can say in my defence, that I am now very, very rusty with regard to the noble art of sniping, and will listen respectfully to anyone who is more current than I am. Both the sniper rifles I used (the L42 and the L96) are now out of service in the British Army. I guess that makes me an old fart!

SLR

[flamingknives]

With the greatest respect, this is wrong.

Not so much as you might think.

Snipers take cam and concealment to a completely different level from that of the normal grunt.[1] In fact, they are SO well cammed up that when in position, you would pretty much have to trip over one in order to discover his position, and that is no exaggeration:eek:[2] Their use of ground and selection of fire positions is also equally superior.[3] Routes in and routes out will be planned meticulously using 1:1250 scale maps, and also aerial photographs.[4] Fire positions will usually be in in-depth positions of cover, taking full advantage of shadow. Muzzle flash and smoke will be almost impossible to spot.[5] If firing from a building, the sniper will be well back from any window, again making him very difficult to spot.[6] Sticking the barrel of the weapon out of the window, as depicted in the game would only happen under exceptional circumstances.[7]

[1] Not going to disagree there. I might take issue with the idea that they do it all the time, even when jumping out of the back of a Warrior.

[2] That I can well believe. I've seen it done with regular DPM in favourable conditions. All the time though?

[3] I don't doubt it, but in the game this is entirely down to the player.

[4] You, as the player, have access to a 3d representation of the terrain that you can investigate in minute detail. To use it or not is down to you

[5] Again, where you put your sniper team is down to you. No special skills really required here.

[6] Would this not also be true of any well-trained soldier?

[7] Yes, the way that the game depicts troops in buildings is a bit lacking at the moment. This goes for all soldiers

The standard sniping range, at least when I was in, was 400m. At this range, successful head shots would be expected pretty much all of the time, unless of course, the wind conditions were particularly tricky. 300m is close - we had to stalk to within this range for the purposes of tests - and 200m would be considered too close for comfort. Accurate sniping with the L96 was expected out to about 800m, and harassing fire from 800 to 1200m

Could this be rectified by bumping the experience level of snipers up a couple of levels?

Spotting an in-position sniper at anything under 300m (perhaps even 200) would be very, very difficult, and in my opinion some form of modifier is required to reflect this.

An in-position sniper who had stalked his way into position over several hours or one that had moved in during a 30 minute firefight?

Two scenarios reflect the different uses of the CMSF sniper. In UK British Mettle, sniper pairs would be out on their own ahead of the FEBA, their tasks recce, FOO/MFC, and elimination of key personnel, in that order. They would have moved into position during the night, and would be fully cammed up - possibly even in hasty hides - and ready to perform their tasks by first light. They would be fully ghillie-suited up. In Joint Venture, they would be operating in close proximity with the troops. As I recall, the ranges in that scenario were much closer. The snipers would be concentrating on elimination of key personnel, certainly until the enemy got really close. I would surmise that they would probably be wearing normal uniform as depicted.

The use in British Mettle is the less usual in CMSF, so unsurprisingly it isn't modelled as well. Most of the time, they will be supporting the main force and therefore not all cammed up.

I have advocated in the past the idea that sniper teams should have a deploy function, like some heavy weapons. When deployed, the spotter would no longer fire his personal weapon - it being assumed that he is spotting for the sniper - and certain attributes would go up accordingly, possibly including hit probability and stealth.

This, rather than a non-standard bonus that applies regardless of how you abuse your poor snipers, would only apply when you have successfully got your men into position and settled.

In the mean time, making your snipers crack or elite should gloss over the cracks.

Some of you may disagree with my figures. I can say in my defence, that I am now very, very rusty with regard to the noble art of sniping, and will listen respectfully to anyone who is more current than I am. Both the sniper rifles I used (the L42 and the L96) are now out of service in the British Army. I guess that makes me an old fart!

SLR

I wouldn't claim any experience in sniping, but I've usually got a good handle on how the game works and how it relates to reality.

I would say that your choice of forum name made you more of an old fart. Please don't start going on about having "a proper gun in my day, none of this plastic rubbish"

[SelfLoadingRifle]

Flaming Knives,

If the aim of the CM series of games is to produce as realistic a simulation of modern warfare as possible, it is worth stating that the main problem is that the virtual soldier does not behave in the same way as his real counterpart. Simply put, you cannot give him his orders and let him get on with it because he cannot think for himself. Consequently you have to micro-manage him to an extent that you would never do, or be able to do in real-life, particularly if our virtual soldier is a sniper. In simulations such as these, I suppose that it will ever be thus, until such time as artificial intelligence approaches the levels displayed in the Terminator series of movies:rolleyes:

The key is to identify which elements of our virtual soldier require a separate imput from the gamer, and which can be covered by the program. As you so correctly imply, much of the way they perform in the game depends directly on you the player. There is no way around this and nor should there be. For example unskilled CMSF players will deploy snipers on bare hilltops, rooftops or deploy them in isolated cover, locations that no real-life sniper would consider even for a moment. Their choice of route for the sniper will often be equally inappropriate. All of this will have inevitable consequences; the life of the virtual sniper will be both short and exciting. But that is the beauty of products such as CMSF. No one gets hurt:D You learn by your mistakes, re-boot, and try again.

However, I digress. There are certain characteristics which the software can and IMHO should replicate. 1) When snipers/sniper pairs are statically deployed in cover, there should be a modifier that makes them significantly harder to spot than the normal soldier. 2) Their long range accuracy should be ramped up considerably from what it is at the moment in the game and 3) They should be given FOO/MFC capabilities. If all this was done the improvement in realism with regard to the sniper would be considerable.

And finally, the game designers would do well to ask the question; "What is a sniper?" Merely giving someone a highly accurate rifle does not a sniper make. My definition of the kind of "sniper" currently depicted in the game would be the term 'sharpshooter' I would reserve 'sniper' only for someone who had undergone extensive training in the art of sniping. In my opinion both sharpshooter and sniper should be featured in any future CM releases.

SLR.

P.S. With regard to Brit snipers, the LSW would be the preferred choice of weapon for the number 2 of the sniper pair over the standard SA80.

P.P.S. The L96 had green plastic furniture, but what a wonderful bit of kit it was:) Don't get me started on the SA80!!!

[flamingknives]

It's an interesting question. Are snipers special, or just good?

Stealth and accuracy improvements are part of experience levels, so if those benefits are part and parcel of the modern sniper then the scenario designer should adjust experience levels accordingly. Defining a sniper as someone with high levels of training etc matches pretty well with the "Crack" and "Elite" experience levels.

Perhaps operating a Crack or Elite sniper team in a realistic fashion would give you the results you are after? Many complaints about unrealistic results can often be traced to unrealistic usage or unrealistic experience ratings or combinations

On the other hand, CMSF already allows certain character class improvements like marksman, anti-tank, forward observers. Would snipers be a suitable candidate, in which case what abilities do they have that sets them apart from common or garden really good soldiers? Would it be the lack of some skills be the determining factor. Perhaps a sniper has good stealth and marksmanship, but something like use of cover or survivability in room clearing, use of grenades might be limited.

[Frankster65]

I've got a question for you guys...kind of simple and away from the point of this thread but I've been wondering about it...

When you send a sniper team into a vehicle to reload ammo, do you have the team "aquire" the 5.56mm or 7.62mm ammo? From my own very basic understanding, do not the standard infantry weapons today consist of 5.56mm? Does not the sniper today use a rifle which consist mainly of 7.62mm?

How do you pick in game which ammo to resupply the sniper team with?

[akd]

There are four sniper rifles that use 7.62 NATO: the US Army M110, the USMC M40, the Canadian C3A1 and the Brit L96. The rest of the western sniper rifles use other types of ammunition and cannot be resupplied.

[meade95]

Flaming Knives,

If the aim of the CM series of games is to produce as realistic a simulation of modern warfare as possible, it is worth stating that the main problem is that the virtual soldier does not behave in the same way as his real counterpart. Simply put, you cannot give him his orders and let him get on with it because he cannot think for himself. Consequently you have to micro-manage him to an extent that you would never do, or be able to do in real-life, particularly if our virtual soldier is a sniper. In simulations such as these, I suppose that it will ever be thus, until such time as artificial intelligence approaches the levels displayed in the Terminator series of movies:rolleyes:

The key is to identify which elements of our virtual soldier require a separate imput from the gamer, and which can be covered by the program. As you so correctly imply, much of the way they perform in the game depends directly on you the player. There is no way around this and nor should there be. For example unskilled CMSF players will deploy snipers on bare hilltops, rooftops or deploy them in isolated cover, locations that no real-life sniper would consider even for a moment. Their choice of route for the sniper will often be equally inappropriate. All of this will have inevitable consequences; the life of the virtual sniper will be both short and exciting. But that is the beauty of products such as CMSF. No one gets hurt:D You learn by your mistakes, re-boot, and try again.

However, I digress. There are certain characteristics which the software can and IMHO should replicate. 1) When snipers/sniper pairs are statically deployed in cover, there should be a modifier that makes them significantly harder to spot than the normal soldier. 2) Their long range accuracy should be ramped up considerably from what it is at the moment in the game and 3) They should be given FOO/MFC capabilities. If all this was done the improvement in realism with regard to the sniper would be considerable.

And finally, the game designers would do well to ask the question; "What is a sniper?" Merely giving someone a highly accurate rifle does not a sniper make. My definition of the kind of "sniper" currently depicted in the game would be the term 'sharpshooter' I would reserve 'sniper' only for someone who had undergone extensive training in the art of sniping. In my opinion both sharpshooter and sniper should be featured in any future CM releases.

SLR.

+1 - I believe tweaking to snipers has long been needed - Ditto that for the experience level of "elite" in general as well.

[Ryujin]

There are four sniper rifles that use 7.62 NATO: the US Army M110, the USMC M40, the Canadian C3A1 and the Brit L96. The rest of the western sniper rifles use other types of ammunition and cannot be resupplied.

AFAIK, you cannot supply any snipers, the 7.62x51 you can acquire is considered linked only and your snipers can't unlink it (not to mention it's not match ammo like M118LR).

[akd]

No, you can. Just tested with the Stryker battalion snipers. Both the M110 team and the M82 team show ammo in the second column. As both teams fire, ammo in the second column is depleted. Once gone, the snipers stop firing. If you resupply the M110 team with 7.62 ammo, the sniper will resume firing until the second column is depleted, but if you resupply the M82 team with 7.62, the column will fill, but the sniper will not resume firing and the second column level will remain steady.

So, both 7.62 and 12.7 sniper ammo shows in the second column, but only 7.62 NATO rifles can be resupplied. Another example of the "streamlined" and "user-friendly" UI just making things more obscure and confusing.

Edit: actually, my previous assumption that M82 teams could not be resupplied was based on the fact there was no place to acquire .50 cal ammo. However, an M82 team that has depleted its second column ammo can enter a dismountable M2 Humvee (Brit module IBCT Assault platoon) and acquire 12.7mm AP-I. The second column will fill and the M82 sniper will resume firing. So now my assumption is that only non-standard caliber sniper rifles (.300 Winchester and .338 Lapua) cannot be resupplied, but I will have to test this.

Edit2: non-standard caliber (.300 Winchester, .228 Lapua) sniper rifle teams do not show their ammo in the second column and there is no source for resupply.

[meade95]

So, 12.7mm AP-I, is equivalent .50cal ammo? For resupply.