Snipers

[akd]

Seems to be so.

[Frankster65]

LOL...I'm really confused now. Going to have to re-read this thread in order to try and clarify things. All I want to do is resupply my sniper teams.

[Erwin]

As AKD said: "There are four sniper rifles that use 7.62 NATO: the US Army M110, the USMC M40, the Canadian C3A1 and the Brit L96." These you can resupply with 7.62.

[stoex]

akd,

interesting test results. I'm 99.99% sure it didn't use to be so that you could resupply snipers unless they were using 5.56 or 7.62 (standard) ammo, like the Brit sniper rifle (forget the designation). I don't recall reading a patch note on this being changed, either. Are you sure you're testing this correctly, 'cause of course it would be swell if this worked. If you have a fully armed sniper with an M82 and acquire some .50cal ammo, it's possile that what you're seeing when he fires is just him using his pre-equipped ammo (whatever that is, sorry I forget all the terminology) until it's empty. Will he actually use up the whole bar in the GUI? In other words, if you let him shoot unitl he's empty and then resupply him with standard .50, will he resume shooting?

So far I have only been able to resupply the snipers armed with 5.56 caliber rifles in the game and actually have them actually use those bullets. Remember that anyone can carry any kind of ammo, even if they can't use it...

[akd]

akd,

interesting test results. I'm 99.99% sure it didn't use to be so that you could resupply snipers unless they were using 5.56 or 7.62 (standard) ammo, like the Brit sniper rifle (forget the designation). I don't recall reading a patch note on this being changed, either. Are you sure you're testing this correctly, 'cause of course it would be swell if this worked. If you have a fully armed sniper with an M82 and acquire some .50cal ammo, it's possile that what you're seeing when he fires is just him using his pre-equipped ammo (whatever that is, sorry I forget all the terminology) until it's empty. Will he actually use up the whole bar in the GUI? In other words, if you let him shoot unitl he's empty and then resupply him with standard .50, will he resume shooting?

So far I have only been able to resupply the snipers armed with 5.56 caliber rifles in the game and actually have them actually use those bullets. Remember that anyone can carry any kind of ammo, even if they can't use it...

Please read again, including my edits. 7.62 NATO sniper rifles and 12.7mm sniper rifles can be resupplied from vehicle ammo. .300 Winchester and .338 Lapua cannot (no vehicle has the ammo).

And regarding the m82, like I said, I expended all the sniper's ammo before having the the team acquire the 12.7mm. Only after acquiring 12.7mm would the sniper resume shooting again.

There are no 5.56mm snipers/sniper rifles in the game. Soldiers with 5.56mm weapons and the scope icon next to them simply indicate marksmen, possibly with a marksman's rifle of some sort. They would use the same ammo as their squad.

[SelfLoadingRifle]

It's an interesting question. Are snipers special, or just good?

Stealth and accuracy improvements are part of experience levels, so if those benefits are part and parcel of the modern sniper then the scenario designer should adjust experience levels accordingly. Defining a sniper as someone with high levels of training etc matches pretty well with the "Crack" and "Elite" experience levels.

There is a very simple answer to this; snipers are special, with meticulously taught skills that set them completely apart from the normal soldier. These include navigation, observation, cam and concealment, stalking, marksmanship and MFC/FOO, and in this day and age, probably CAS.

Sniping is not something that can be done by (say) an elite grunt from the Rifles Guards or Paras. He/they would have to do the course first, and it has a high failure rate. Simply put,the normal perameters of the game do not come close to simulating what the highly trained sniper can do.

I hope that the game designers are reading this. I was a sniper... a long, long time ago. I can help to a certain degree, but I am not current. My advice to them is to consult a sniper who is.

SLR

[Erwin]

Really good info. Thanks.

[Erwin]

SLR: When I worked for DoD agencies designing sims I sensed a real bias against special forces/special ops including snipers. I think that spec ops upsets the average military mindsets that are only comfortable envisaging conventional actions with formations of tanks streaming along plains accompanied by Mech Inf and covered with Attack aircraft and Arty barrages.

They HATE the concept that one guy can snipe the commanding generals of the other side, or perform some other magic that can completely ruin their detailed simulations and make a mockery of all their expensive hardware/toys. It's akin to the Maginot line mentality - training to win the last war when all you have to do is look around and you can see where things are going (eg: Cyberwar etc.). If you look very, very hard, you just may catch a glimpse of that attitude in discussion threads not a million miles away lol.

There are some forward thinkers who are aware of all these problems thank goodness. But, it's uncertain if they have much traction as there is SO much money/profit in creating and maintaining conventional forces. It was a fascinating but somewhat disillusioning episode in my life.

[Erwin]

AKD: I tried to summarize the discussion on sniper ammo and resupply. See if the following is accurate plz:

"There are four sniper rifles that use 7.62 NATO: the US Army M110, the USMC M40, the Canadian C3A1 and the Brit L96.

Sniper rifles using 12.7mm/50 cal ammo can only be resupplied if there is a suitable (rare) source of 12.7mm/50 cal ammo resupply (NOT integral vehicle ammo).

Eg: An M82 team that has depleted its second column ammo can enter a dismountable M2 Humvee (Brit module IBCT Assault platoon) and acquire 12.7mm AP-I. The second column will fill and the M82 sniper will resume firing.

Non-standard caliber (.300 Winchester, .228 Lapua) sniper rifle teams do not show their ammo in the second column and there is no source for resupply."

[akd]

Sounds right (but it is .338 Lapua).

[Erwin]

Thanks for the clarification, akd. (NB: I got the .228 Lapua ref from your message 11-18-2010, 04:49 PM, so you may want to edit it.)

Re possible 50 cal/12.7mm resupply vehicles in CMSF and all modules... Are there any additional supply sources other than the "M2 Humvee (Brit module IBCT Assault platoon)"?

Hopefully, designers will put at least one of these in a scenario with snipers. Seems not quite right that a sniper would run out of ammo so easily (or is that to avoid imbalance?).

I think that ALL games have problems depicting snipers. In all games (I can think of) other than CMSF, snipers are depicted as a very powerful unit, safely taking out gobs of enemies at long range.

Why do you think that is? Anyone?

[Javolenus]

This is an interesting thread.

I've seen several 'sniping' pc games. They were really just first-person shooters rather than realistic operational simulations. Seems to me there could be room for a truly realistic sniping simulation, if the game was based around mission planning and realistic operational criteria. The market for such a game might be quite small but would probably be really dedicated.

There was a game called 'Sniper Elite', which, despite input from curators at the Royal Armouries, seemed a bit unrealistic. For example, the player's sniper-avatar is unable to enter buildings and is obliged to crawl around open streets! And the missions in this game could be completed without a sniper rifle!

Another game - Ghost Warrior - had your sniper-avatar wading through thick jungles throwing knives at people.

Another game - Arma II - featured snipers with ghillie suits and a variety of available rifles, but your sniper-avatar is invariably seen/heard/shot by enemy troops before deploying, or a nano-second after making his first shot.

I'm working on a CMSF scenario featuring the command section of a British light infantry unit. The unit has two snipers. But how best to use them? I mean, it would be good if you could order them to fire once at a definite target then immediately relocate or hide. As it is, they engage targets but come under immediate suppression and are unable to move. I suppose they really need to be out of range of normal rifles in order to avoid suppression? The point is, I think CMSF players like me need a bit more guidance on how best to use snipers. Would be good to explore the themes raised in this thread in more detail.

Finally, I recently saw part of a TV documentary showing a NATO foot patrol in Afghanistan. The NATO troops were pinned down by a sniper and actually unable to leave the house they were sheltering in. One NATO soldier, taking post near a window, was shot by the sniper and was only saved by his helmet. What came across was how difficult it is to deal with snipers. This TV clip also demonstrated the 'morale' or 'psy' effect of snipers - something that I've never seen modelled in a game.

[George MC]

One of my mates was a sniper in the Royal Marines. Based on his experiences a sniper game would involved sitting strating at your PC for hours and hours with nothing happening. Or spending hours and hours getting into postion to then spend hours and hours waiting for something to happen

One of his favourite stories is sniping Challenger tank commanders from a wood 500m (using TESIC kit). They'd no idea they were and him and his mate managed to get more than a few of em before they realised what was happening.

[Javolenus]

Hi George - that's a fair point you make there. I guess it highlights a key problem with 'simulation' games: just how much realism are gamers prepared to put up with?!

Nevertheless, it seems to me that the 'perfect sniper sim' has yet to be realised.

[SelfLoadingRifle]

The lack of what I would call proper snipers in the game is a weakness that Battlefront would do well to address. What I would call a sniper would be pretty much undetectable when firing from cover from as close as 150/200 metres. Their long range accuracy, particularly with some of today's state of the art kit is phenomenal. This could also be better simulated in the game.

Some years ago, I had a very interesting conversation with the Master Sniper who trained me. He had just returned from the Middle East where he had been training Saudis in the noble art of sniping. He couldn't persuade them to stalk - an essential sniping skill. They argued that it was the will of Allah if they got hit and that stalking was not necessary:confused: I have since heard similar accounts. I would surmise that Battlefront would certainly have to model the Arabic sniper somewhat differently from his western counterpart:eek:

If Battlefront ever do get around to modelling snipers properly, I would suggest that they be used very sparingly indeed in scenarios because a well trained sniper pair can be a major, major pain in the arse for the poor sods that come up against them.

SLR.

[Dietrich]

Similar to MikeyD's characteristic observation that some breeze through certain scenarios whereas he finds them fiendishly difficult, I typically don't lose snipers, and I do (sometimes, but not always or usually) get first-round kills with them.

If all infantry (whether of different nationality or the same one) have the same accuracy at the same experience level (all else being equal), then a Veteran sniper (taking into account the fact that he's armed with a sub-MOA rifle rather than a carbine or an assault rifle) is no more accurate than a Veteran rifleman. If that's the case, then a sniper ought to have a higher experience level than what is the average for his parent unit. Just because all the other troops in the company or even the battalion are Green doesn't mean a correspondingly trained sniper would be as well.

The problem of prone snipers in grass/brush being spotted from 500+ meters after firing just a few shots could conceivably be alleviated—at least somewhat—by slight tweaks in scenario design. If a sniper team is already on the map, and if it's not a meeting engagement, then the scenario designer could pre-place the sniper team in a place with LOS/LOF to a good portion of the map which is 500+ meters from the enemy's side of the map and give it a one-tile trench (i.e., a two- or three-man fighting position) with brush for concealment. I reckon this could simulate the sniper team having already "staked out" a position and prepared it accordingly.

I'm not arguing against the surmise that snipers ought to be tweaked. I'm just hypothesizing options for working around snipers' deficiencies in the meantime.

[Javolenus]

I made a quick sniper scenario. The map is 2000m by 400m. At one end I put Syrian infantry (75 men), at the other end a UK sniper platoon plus company C2 (11 men). I elevated the British end by some 3m, and put the snipers in 1-tile trenches in 'brush' terrain. The British C2 unit I put in a house. The British had good LOS across the whole map. I gave the Syrians orders to advance up the map and assault the British-held house. Then watched what happened.

From the start of the scenario, the British snipers identified targets but would not open fire until the Syrians were 1000m metres away. Even with good LOS and 'target' commands, the snipers held fire until 1000m.

The Syrians continued to advance through fire. At about 800m from the Brititsh position the Syrians spotted the C2 units in the house. At about 500m some Syrian units spotted one of the sniper teams.

The Syrians tried to press on but eventually caved in. British losses = 0; Syrian losses = 30 killed and 30 wounded.

[Fūrinkazan]

Very interesting thread.

There are a lot of questions about snipers.

I did a test a few months ago with all the snipers of the game, except NATO.

you can find it on the repository, it's called sniper test.

Some people have real life experience of sniping and it may be great to have the opinion of specialist about the results.

After the tests i noticed that it seems that you can't spot moving infantry at more than about 1800 m. Do you think it's realistic ?

I was able to hit a target at 1800 m but i think there are very few chances to do it in normal game.

I think that the L115A3 is maybe under evaluated. I was able to hit targets at 1300m max if i remember well. It seems that this rifle has a record of the longest shot with 2475 m. Impossible to test in the game.

I also think that the effect of the M107 0.50 cal on vehicles is not correct.

They should be able to stop a civilian vehicle with one shot i think.

I've seen a test on TV and read interviews of Marine snipers and this weapon is used very efficiently against light armored vehicles.

I did my test with veterans level troops.

I think that having too much cracks and elite is like having an army full of Kurt Knispel or Hans-Ulrich Rudel in WW2 . I have no doubt that Nato troops are very good professionels, but i think that cracks an Elite should be reserved to a very few individuals.

I try to use my snipers with caution. I never shoot at less than 300 m, except against poor infantry. It's hard to use snipers with all the vehicles we have in CMSF and maps are often too small. I also prepare at advance a solution to leave the position very fast if they are detected. I use the pause button and give a move order. When situation is critical, i hit the pause button and they change position immediatly.